Archie Moore's prime ?

Durelle II needs to be looked at closely. Moore looked as fast and as sharp as he ever did in any extant footage. As good a heavyweight as he was, he remained a nightmare under 175 right through to Rinaldi II.

 

I disagree with everyone. Moore entered his prime alot earlier than suspected here -probably sometime in 1943. He admitted that when he was facing Burley and Booker, he was in his prime.

We should not race our eyes over his record and then call his prime that time when he's got the long strings of Ws. Those losses earlier were against more formidable fighters than those he was facing in the 50s with a few exceptions like Johnson and the Rock. But I for one don't believe for a minute that 1944 Moore wouldn't have whipped the hell out of Durelle -and Durelle could have that 13 pound advantage. He'd need it.

Moore didn't need to be as good to beat what he beat in the 50s. He turned 27 in '44 and was, as he says, "fighting for dear life" in that Californian war zone against killers with a grudge. Fighters get razor sharp when they have no choice. Sure he was losing in 43/44 -who the hell wouldn't when they're looking at Murderers' Row at its murderous best? Burley, Williams in '45, Booker, and Chase beat him, but he whipped Chase at Chase's peak and Marshall twice.

Moore hit prime earlier than claimed in this thread. Forget the revisionism.

 

Archie Moore looked pretty spectacular on film around 51-55, seemed he did not lose any speed, only got bigger stronger and wiser.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUT71-jyY2s[/ame]
1951

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmBHz6vDwuA&feature=related[/ame]
1952

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi66CQ_ivDg[/ame]
1953

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7qFsEmK1gE[/ame]
1954

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jut6UYr6_M0&playnext=1&list=PLE4A2133AC4274CAF[/ame]
1955

 

Stronger and bigger and even wiser, sure, but faster? I doubt it. While other athletes hit their prime in their early 20s, fighters are more than athletes, they have to have experience -like generals. They hit peak in their late 20s -when rising experience and diminishing athleticism are most aligned.

These clips give us a fading view of how spectacular he was in the mid 40s.

 

He may have had his peak speed in the 40s..notice how I say may. I personally think his speed looked at peak form on film all the way until about 1956. If you look at his filmed fight with Oakland Billy Smith in 1946, there doesn't look like much of a difference in his movement/reflexes/speed compared to his 1952 fight against Bivins. At least not in my opinion. Let's say though, that he was a tad faster and sharper in the mid 1940s. That still leaves Skill, Defense, Savvy, and ring generalship. I personally think his skill level improved from the mid 40s to early 1950s, and I think it's abundantly clear his defense and especially his Savvy did as well. Archie's style, like Bernard Hopkins, was built upon experience. Both peaked in there mid 30s when both had enough years of experience and knowledge to put together the ultimate style, while still retaining enough of there speed/reflexes to put it into deadly use. Archie was still learning his craft in the mid 40s, and used those losses to improve himself as a fighter.


I consider the early 1950s Archie Moore one of the greatest fighters of all time. That 1952 version of Archie Moore knocks out the 1942 Archie Moore. He also knocks out Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall, and Holman Williams. No way a 155-160lber can hang with the Ole Mongoose of 175 chizzled pounds in 1952. If Archie in 1942 was really that much better than the 1952 Archie, than the murders row must be the greatest crop of fighters of all time for getting the better of Archie.

 

Love this thread. Always respected Archie and loved his style. Great technician and one of the craftiest. I have looked at most of his fights on yt but I don't think I've seen the Slade one but I'll check that out and others I come across.

 

I agree S,that Archie Moore was inn his prime in the early 1940s fighting a slew of great Western fighters, who would easily be champs today. Jack Chase, Eddie Booker,Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshall,Jimmy Bivens etc. Tough, tough crew, they were in a very deep pool of talent...
I never saw Archie fight those days as he was fighting a lot on the West Coast, but one day I was in Stillman's gym, when Archie and a friend and two chicks came in and stood a few feet from me.Archie was nattily dressed.
I recall that he was then introduced to Eddie Anderson [Rochester,from the Jack Benny show].and they chatted away...Those days for me in Stillman's gym was so thrilling for me a youngster ,not only watching the greatest fighters in the world, but standing a few feet away from oldtime fighters,also watching the two sparring rings. I saw an old Kid Norfolk, a tall dignified
Harry Wills,a Ben Jeby,and so many retired ex fighters. Ah memories !

 

I like watching this one aswell

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUT71-jyY2s[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwuTfsXFrQ4[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8JZ9kbAcU[/ame]

 

There's physical prime and career prime ... obviously his physical prime was far earlier but his career prime was the early fifties ... when was the best Moore, so hard to tell .. having consistent fights and the ability to train full time goes a long way .. regardless, any Archie Moore performance has moments of brilliance that are terrific to watch ...

 

Archies best win streak was a 50 bout win streak marred by a disputed decision to Harold Johnson that he avenged 3 times and a DQ leading up to Marciano and I think this was his overall prime. Archie's experience is evident he was smooth and tricky and was the hardest hitting ever at 175. He KO'd heavyweight Bob Baker and beat Valdes 2 times, KO'd Bivens and beat the best at light-heavyweight and heavyweight....He took a frightful beating from Marciano and it took its toll on him, he aged in the ring that night but Archie still managed to go 38-4-2 in his remaining fights and gave a live account of himself vs Ali 8 years later ...he was at his peak for Marciano overall.....He was the best Lightheavyweight champion IMO and quite a heavyweight

 

While he generally was in against better opposition, the record would indicate he did show progression against Bivins, Williams when he performed better in subsequent fights, unless ofcourse those men faded. There's also the possibility that while he may have been at his best in the mid 40s that the schedule was just too much for him carrying injuries fight to fight

 

:good exactly. His physical prime and career prime did not come together at the same time but he was able to capitalise on this by being more effective as a veteran fighter anyway.

Archie was a clever man first and a talented athlete second. He stayed in shape, developed and adapted his style over many years. Profesionaly Archie was treading water for a lot of years and always learning.

maybe if you could put all those effective and subtle tricks into the head of the 1943 Archie he would have been amazing but maybe he wasn’t mature enough or as well matched enough to utilise them at that stage.

As a younger fighter he would have hit as hard and maintained a better work rate but was he as efficient as 48-55 Moore? would that have made him as effective? the higher workrate could simply mean he missed more often and gave more openings.

The guy was "The Mongoose" after all. He wasn’t born crafty. being experienced and crafty was possibly 50% of Archie moores game.

 

great post chokelab.

I think the very best Archie Moore was around 1951-1952

 

Archie Moore was a marvel in any age but was not as good a lightheavyweight as his nemesis, Ezzard Charles who whipped Moore twice, and kod Archie in the 3rd bout. Ezzard just had Archie's number, similar to 20 years before when Jack Delaney had Paul Berlenbach's number, beating Oom Paul several times...What a round robin tournament between Delaney, Berlenbach, Archie
Moore,and the great gentleman Ezzard Charles !!!

 

Archie Moore-Ezzard Charles series was a lot closer than the 3-0 indicates. Many think Moore was robbed in the 2nd fight, and Moore had Charles all but knocked out in the 8th round of the 3rd fight before Charles perhaps turned in his most impressive display ever and recuperated to knock Archie out as he was coming in to finish Charles off.

1952-1955 Archie Moore wins by knockout over the 1942-1945 Archie Moore