Are Charles and Walcott better than Patterson?

The kit wasn't for losing. It was for getting away. He wore it to the airport on one occasion. It had literally nothing to do with his losing so far as I can tell.

It's just another piece of the phantom puzzle you want to put together to make what you want to be true reasonable. What actually happened is of absolutely no interest to you.

So it affected Sonny?

What you're saying is that Patterson behaved in a similar manner to how he behaved before (true) but by sending these signals to Sonny Liston he affected Liston's performance?

How did it affect Liston's performance?

This is a surprise to me given that I have spelled out to you in every single post exactly what I want you to do.

You believe Floyd freezes? But you just said:

"He gave off the same vibes in fights he won -I know this. But Sonny was the wrong man to give off those vibes too. Sonny was a wolf."

This indicates you do NOT believe that "Floyd Freezes" but rather that "Sonny was the wrong man [to give of vibes he'd given to in "fights he'd won"]. That, specifically, indicates that it was Sonny who was changed by this body-language you've so expertly picked up on, not Floyd?

Anyway, yeah, tell me where "Floyd freezes" in this fight film:

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Note the early commentary, something you've been fond of quoting on the forum before:

"Patterson came to fight."

definitely not.

 

...okay, **** it, i'll bite.

You haven't time-coded any of your observations, so i've no idea when these things are supposed to happen and you'll be shocked to hear I have no intention of taking your word.

But this first one.

"He ducks a jab after waiting for it to come."

In this video you can see, at 1:43, at the start, Patterson doesn't "duck a jab" at all. He just lets it hit him in the face - no duck attempted:

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In other words, Patterson shows "body language" of "freezing" more severe than that which he showed against Sonny.

Why is that, do you think?

This is just flat out untrue. At 0:10 below - 9 seconds into the fight - Patterson throws a double left hook.

Contrarily, for Patterson-Johansson III he manages one jab in the first 10 seconds:

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In other words, Patterson leads more early against Liston than against Johansson, if by "early" you mean the first few seconds and it's hard to see how you could mean anything else given that...well, he threw a double left-hook very early.

How do you know this?

I would like a specific answer to this one please.

At 1:00 he "lunges" at Liston with a left hook:

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I don't agree that the punch lacked venom.

The rest of this post is just "Floyd looked mentally drained" or "he looked weak". He didn't.

He did try to keep things very very neat. He was more aggressive in positioning than he was against, say, Johansson in I, but he was tidyer, he didn't try anything too expansive (for him - he still leaps with at least one punch). This is because he's in with an elite puncher.

Being frank? Most of what you've said here is nonsense. Film doesn't back it up, and the rest is just wishful thinking which you haven't proven because you can't prove it. And, to be fair, that's fine - proving that something that doesn't exist exists by describing it is impossible.

Won't stop you though.

 

Jesus Christ choklab, that's the whole point. In another fight, Patterson behaves in a way that if he had done it against Liston you would use it to provide evidence of his being frozen. The whole point is that the evidence is more compelling in a different fight entirely.

Where is the evidence of Floyd panicking against Liston?

It's a more than adequate punch - it's also hugely risky, a real gamble. Basically it looks like Floyd has tried to make his usual gamble but while trying to stay compact and narrow. That's fine if his plan was to decide to stay inside.

The big problem is that he has decided to attack and crowd Liston though. It's very similar to the Billy Conn plan against Joe Louis.

So you have determined that against Liston, even though he throws more early, he is being less attacking than he was against Johansson, even though he threw fewer punches against Johansson?

Just how do you know this? When did you realise that the key to Patterson being "drained" and "mentally tired" and "intimidated" and all the other dozens and dozens of claims you've made against these fifteen seconds of film was the fact that he threw more punches than in a similar fight?

This is complete pish. He's leading. You claimed he wasn't and he was. He is "leading" he is "leading off" in the "leading off sense". He sees an opportunity to land a punch - at risk - and he takes it. And then he throws another one. All within ten seconds of the fight beggining. Your claim:

"He won't lead"

Is clearly and irrefutably untrue. And according to you it is a basis for your argument that Floyd has "frozen" (which i'm not sure you're making because you said earlier that it was Sonny's reaction, not Floyd's demonstration, that mattered). However i've asked you about it and you have chosen not to answer (again) so that's that.

His punches come out slow? choklab, are you feeling okay?

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The above at 10 seconds - the second punch is lightning, absolute lightning, he is up and down like a panther, it's incredible speed. You could argue the second one doesn't have much on it, that it's a feeling out punch, but thsi is absolutely normal for Patterson as has been shown - it's the first ten seconds of the fight.

What appears on film and what you say happened are absolutely opposed.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the speed of the first punch, either, though it wasn't as lightning as the second one. There is so little between them it's crazy.

And this is bad, this spontaneous counter-punch? Your argument is that because he spontaneously counterpunches Liston with a double left-hook you have proven he was nervous/frozen/whatever it is you're trying to say? I have that right?

Because it's total nonsense.

...ffs. You think that Patterson thought that his punch came out slower than expected because after it they come together? You're reading that as proof that PATTERSON PERSONALLY HAD THE FEELING "my punch has come ou more slowly than he expected, within himself, and this is the reason they clinch?

I am not exaggerating when I say, that is the biggest load of cra@p I have ever heard on this forum in my life.

Yes, he has definitely thrown better punches. But it is the first ten seconds of the fight.

Floyd has come out more aggressively than everyone expected, very famously, than anyone expected, but because he isn't throwing his best punches in the first ten seconds of the fight, you are reading this as evidence of panic/freezing/whatever it is you're trying to say?

choklab, this is the absolute worst kind of fantasy. It's just you deciding something is true and then looking for anything you can cling to so it can be so. It's absolutely absurd. The best one is that Patterson's double left-hook was "slow", "more slowly than he expected" but this is right there with it. It's crazy stuff, it really is.

You have made claims about Patterson's behavior in this fight. The only way to establish if it is true or not is to look at other fights to see how Patterson is behaving in those.

And despite the fact that he is MORE aggressive against Liston than he is in some of his contests, there really aren't any.

So I look forwards now to hearing why this is the reason he was panicking.

 

It's absolutely crazy stuff, it really is. He is talking about Patterson-Liston (incorrectly) within six words of his first post in the thread.

I honestly don't think i've ever seen anyone as obsessed and weird about a fighter, and it's this perfect storm because he's got two obsessions that are right up there with the deepest we've seen, and they are about fighters who were in the same division.