Are Charles and Walcott better than Patterson?

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Thank you. The sparring partner was right. It seems obvious Patterson was better than he looked. Any fighter is only as good as the man he fights let’s him. Sonny was right on him before he got going. Both times. Floyd had a plan but he could not deliver it, he failed, and was overwhelmed. Sonny was too good.

Floyds book was called something like “victory over myself” because he was so complex and fought with himself. I think Sonny was the one guy Floyd couldn’t fight against whilst fighting both himself and Sonny. Sonny was enough on his own.

 

I'll agree on Charles but I think Patterson proved his superior p4p quality over Walcott quite clearly with him fighting with a decent weight disadvantage in about every fight while Walcott fought more or less guys of his own weight.

 

Once you are in the heavyweights i'm not sure P4P really works that way. Not for me. It's an open division. The heavyweights have to make their name on ability and accomplishment for me.

 

I'd agree when talking about heavyweight rankings but p4p is literally about comparing fighters of different size. So, size of the fighter himself and his opposition should count IMO. Can see your point though and from that perspective I would agree as well.

 

I can see your point as well. We just do it a little differently. When i match say a Marciano and a Lewis up i don't make it a bigger Marciano as they already fought in the same division. Cruiserweight clouds thing a little but with guys that were champion heavyweights prior to cruiser being around, well i just ignore it.

I'd be the same if they put cruiser up to 218 or something in the future. I wouldn't stop seeing Holmes, Louis, Ali and co. as heavyweights.

I'm rambling lol

 

These are good observations of what it's like being in the ring!
My guess is you have actually boxed.
Not sure mcgrain has.

 

I think Floyd was basically outgunned by Sonny and he knew it.
When you look at the first fight it was basically a very big heavyweight of the day against a stuffed up middleweight in there, the size difference was apparent.
Sonny simply man handled Floyd in there like a rag doll and was hurting Floyd with mistimed punches and ones which weren't completely on the target.
As Floyd wasn't a runner and despite his speed was always there in front of Sonny he simply had no chance.
Sonny was too big, too strong and too powerful for Floyd to cope with.

 

Yes, I have boxed, but I wasn’t much good. I guess a lot of folks on here have given it a go and if they haven’t I still don’t think boxing is that complicated for students of its history who have not boxed to be able to recognise situations like this.

Mcgrain is a very good poster though. We disagree but that’s okay.

Coaches and fighters often talk about the importance of the psychology in a performance. How often so much is more is mental compared to the physical.

Floyd and Sonny were absolutely both great fighters. It is interesting that Floyds rating suffers because of Sonny and that Listons resume suffers without Patterson.

 

Bingo.

 

Yes Floyd was outgunned. And so was everyone else. For that time Sonny was a monster. But what amplified his results (like other monsters in history like Tyson, Primo Carnera and Joe Louis) was the fear factor, the intimidation, the hyping out of the victims.

If it was just size and power the. Bonavena and Chuvalo would have smoked Patterson too.

As much as a fighter didn’t want to be intimidated, dosnt want to be dominated, dosnt want to freeze.. there is often no control in being able to do it. Alex Stewart was as brave as they come but just could not perform in front of Tyson. Bruce Seldon too. King Levinsky against Joe Louis. It takes nothing from Louis nor Tyson to say this.

If you look at Patterson in the Liston fight there are moments where he’s hanging on like crazy before getting hurt.

 

Better how? I voted for other as they are close enough in ability, and each match up a bit different vs others.

I'd give Patterson the edge on power, Charles the edge on overall skills and toughness, and Walcott the edge on defense, and footwork.

All three were great 185-200 pounders. Who has the best overall resume of the bunch? Maybe Charles. Who was champion the longest at heavyweight? Patterson. Who preformed the best vs superior fighters? Maybe Walcott.

 

No, because neither Chuvalo or Bonavena could hit like Liston.