Are Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes the two most technically gifted Heavyweights ever?

There's absolutely a place for uppercuts where you haven't dropped your entire level. The one i showed earlier of Holmes getting himself out of trouble against Weaver featured no dropping of the level and essentially won him that fight. If you drop your level all the time guys will be looking for it. There's loads of variables.

 

That's why Tyson did it as a byproduct of the body hook, it doesn't have to be like a squat, just a quick slight bending of the knees, the only reason that arm punch worked for Holmes was because Weaver was gassed and more than likely had his chin sticking out, Weaver walked into it rather than it being some magnificent punch from Holmes, Ali was the same thing he would time guys coming in

 

Personally i thought it was a brilliant punch by Holmes. He found the opening and took it. Weaver brought his jab back low and Larry got past it.

I'd also strongly disagree it's an "arm punch". That punch was laden with power and that can easily be seen via the impact. The leverage Holmes gets into the punch is clearly seen via the shoulders and look at that snap from the elbow. It's a ripping punch. One doesn't have to leap off the canvas upwards to get power into an uppercut. Sure it can help but one can hit hard with good leverage as long as they have good footing and do everything else right.

 

A whole world of difference in just those 3 short video's.
Coaches used to say back in the days when I trained is
"The way you train, is the way you're going to fight". Especially when you're tired and it becomes more about muscle memory and instinct than conscious thought.
Look at Tyson punching the bag and Usyk. Usyk is stationary. Little head movement. He "shows " his left hook by winding it. Just as Teddy Atlas said in the 1st video.
He does the same thing when he fights. The difference is boxers today simply don't have the skill level to take advantage of the many mistakes he make.
But fighters like Tyson, Ali, Louis and many others would've made him pay dearly.
Tyson hitting the bag compared to what Usyk is demonstrating is like a well seasoned pro compared to an amateur.
No comparison at all.

 

This is it.

Holyfield could be punched out of the textbook and go toe to toe, forehead to forehead to prove his macho. When he doubled and tripled his jab, he had success against Bowe and as soon as Bowe rocked him, he insisted on trying to counter with what was a good, clubbing left hook, but abandoning his jab and good footwork and angles in the process.

 

This content is protected

 

This is patently false - what are you watching?

In the first Liston fight, Ali comes out dancing, head feints and the first punch thrown is a check left hook, slightly off balance so it's not as clean a punch as it should be. The footwork and the angling off as he throws it is technically right. As he's dancing towards the ropes, as his back hits the ropes, he reads Liston's jab, slips, ducks, weaves and pivots, blades off and tucks his chin behind the shoulder as he re-establishes ring centre - this is technically correct. He parries jabs to the body, slips inside and outside jabs to the head and elbow and forearm blocks hooks to the body - this is technically correct. He throws his jab upwards, with a flick, with a corkscrew and as a gauge to land his straight right hand, whilst blocking the vision of his opponent using his jab to frame at times - this is technically correct.

Ali's pull counter - snaps his head back and slightly turns his chin for a split second to minimise any potential impact if he mistimes and then loops his right over the jab he is countering as the opponent's jab returns to base, landing over the opponent's arm and shoulder (the anchor punch landed versus Liston, Mildenberg, Folley, Terrell, Chuvalo to name a few) - this is unorthodox but technically correct/sound.

His footwork as he dances, distribution of weight and co-ordination to where he is repeating blading and pivoting moves performed by the original Sugar man and Pep themselves - unorthodox at times, but still technically correct in execution. His half step, diagonal retreat to open his stance and walk Foreman onto the lead right hand - technically correct.

Shoulder rolling shots, turning his head last second to minimise damage like Duran and firing back counters - technically correct.

Ali often did things technically inconsistently - sloppy, lazy punches in comparison to other more fundamentally poised and consistent fighters, but I can never understand why anyone would think that an Olympic champion, HW champion, who boxed from before his voice broke and was known as a diligent trainer pre-exile didn't know the rulebook and didn't perform the rulebook. Clearly, his style is in defiance of the rulebook and like Archie suggested, he refused to be taught in the classical sense - he wanted to fight his own way and so he did.

Against the strongest punchers, ample examples of Ali fighting with a higher guard, jab and pivot and control of ring centre versus Liston, elbow and forearm blocking shots versus Foreman and many more - ample examples of technically correct and I'm fairly happy to be blunt enough to tell people that they either don't know what they're watching as they don't have real life experiences/understanding of the nuances of fighting a live opponent, don't have the capacity to describe what they're seeing in front of their very eyes or are biased to the point of being disingenuous about what is readily available in evidence.

 

Very good breakdown. But he is frankly not worth that much time and effort.

 

Your first mistake was assuming this guy watches anything.

 

The answer is in there. “He wanted to fight his own way and so he did” He was not a fundamental or technical fighter at all, I think it’s strange to insist it in such an arrogant, rude way when this is seriously 2x2 is 4.

 

If you think this is a good breakdown I’d advise you try learning from someone else. A man who can’t grasp the term of technical isn’t the one I’d get behind in such a snooty way.

 

Think you should take a long look in the mirror before you say that someone else don't grasp anything about boxing. You're a quite worthless poster, among the two worst regular posters on this forum. I haven't seen a single post from you that I didn't consider an utter waste of time.

 

I genuinely believe that you likely don't understand that you can block with a high guard, block with a shoulder, turn your head immediately on impact and counter, slip, weave, duck and pull counter the same exact punch and all of these are sound techniques.

There is a massive difference between classical boxing fundamentals and then unorthodox techniques with appreciation of how it would open up an orthodox fighter that the likes of Ali, SRR, SRL, RJJ, Walcott, Napoles, Duran, Naz, Camacho, Pep, Nunn, Sweet Pete and many others could do and get away with. It is possible to be unorthodox and have fundamentals and technique at the same time.

Often it is people saying x and y doesn't have fundamentals and what they mean is they throw unorthodox combinations or don't typically box in the classical way - doesn't equate to a lack of fundamentals or technique, so again, what are you watching?

 

I’m going to hop off the hamster wheel now.

 

That he did.

Coincidentally, before your post, I was going to try pinpoint and link some examples of the uppercut from the fight - but time wasn’t permitting.

One of those uppercuts they replayed after the round - it really levered Joe’s head up. A real cruncher.

Among others, I also thought Ali threw a perfect, tight left hook that buckled and hurled Joe into the ropes - in round 2 as I recall and I believe that punch was also replayed after the round.