Are SHWs a phase?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Kamikaze, Apr 18, 2021.

  1. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thats usually for kickboxing. For boxing its anyones call. I generally see Superheavyweight starting at 220-225lb. 6'4 Erislandy Savon was pretty slim and looked no bigger than 6'4-6'5, 220lb-225lb Tony Tucker yet Savon still boxed Joshua's head off in the Olympics. And i agree though. Wilder throughout most of his Career weighed no more than skin and bones Earnie Terell so generally he isn't a SHW, yet he still punches significantly harder than practically all of them, funny am i right ? Tiny Bert Cooper was said to punch harder than Lewis, Tyson and Akinwande according to Mccall himself so there are outliers

    A lot of people also think height also defines a SHW but i disagree. SHW is just a weight class. I dont see why 6'2, 240lb+ Chisora is any less of a SWH than 6'6, 240lb+ Joshua, hell Joshua's only loss is to an obese 6 foot man
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  2. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Most of this I agree with.
    Although I never heard SHW defined so low as you do, & while height is secondary, it is part of the package.
    And you need to consider what weight one would be lean, just being overweight does not make a SHW.
    Otherwise Ruiz would be one. By the way listed at 6' 2", maybe he is more like 6'-either way no SHW.

    SHW is not at all a weight class in pro boxing, so it is appropriate to define it as people who are a certain overall size-including height & lean body mass.
    If it is just 220 or above, & anyone regardless of height & muscle mass can be labele as one, it removes all meaning from the term.
    In that case a short or just fat or both guy can be a SHW...
    I would say the Douglas who beat Tyson is the minimum size for a SHW.

    Yes at HW there is a point of diminishing or no returns, so a Bert Cooper might hit harder, a Shavers...Would be surprised if he hit harder than Lewis-but maybe for most power punches he did...
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  3. KidDynamite

    KidDynamite Boxing Addict Full Member

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    They are only going to get bigger

    I'm 6 ft and the younger generation seems to average over 6 ft in height now

    And plus the great athletes at 5'11-6'3" are going into other sports where you don't risk scrambling your brain for life
     
  4. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    It's just an hypothetical extra weight class in boxing to me because SHW does actually exist in other sports and they refer to the weight of someone, not the height and weight. I dont know why people care about height tbh. If we're talking about what advantages a SHW has over a normal heavyweight or a cruiserweight we'd say they generally hit harder, are generally more durable than the weights below, and have a significant size advantage. And it would have to do with the weight of the fighter not the height although height can help if its accompanied with the weight advantage.

    I see no reason why Andy Ruiz shouldn't be classified as one because he was clearly big enough to destroy one. I see no reason why 245lb Frank Bruno shouldn't be considered one either. I dont see Okolie as a supercruiser just because he's 6'5, provided he doesn't hydrate to a gargantuan weight. I dont see why Joe Joyce is any more of a SHW than Samuel Peter

    If they weight the same then their both in the same weight class, because thats how a see SHW, just an extra weight class
     
  5. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    Chris Paul would make a terrible Center.
     
  6. Finkel

    Finkel Active Member Full Member

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    I agree the driving factor is nutrician that allows us to fullfil our genetic potential.

    But genetic potential is passed on through our parents. Shorter men having lots of children would maintain the global average. This is true. But we are talking about why we are seeing more Super Heavyweights, and why the top end still has potential for growth

    You agree height is a successful trait. There is enough information out there to back it up. Successful people tend to breed with each other. This would amplify the trait.

    Tall male athletes often have tall athletic children. Who might surpass them either through nutrician but also depending on the genetics of the mother.

    Biologistics/geneticists tell us there is a levelling off. But your example of the NBA shows us there is still potential room for growth in boxing's premier division.

    I completely agree we are seeing more successful Super Heavyweights because the global pool is bigger. And I also agree that is mainly down to nutrician, as it allows us to fulfil our genetic potential.

    But I suspect we will see for example the island of Japan's population continue to grow as it welcomes more foreign nationals just as much due to an improved diet. (Note: unfortunately I suspect I will be long dead before this hypothesis can be tested due to the homogeneity of their populace)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  7. Ph33rknot

    Ph33rknot El gran campeón Mexicano Full Member

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    There will always be giants they might not all be great
     
  8. MarkusFlorez99

    MarkusFlorez99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Another poster summed it up perfectly. Super heavyweights dominating the division is just natural selection. Ever since the late 80s and all of the 90s it was clearly seen that big men over 220-230lb weren't as slow and/or clumsy as their past counterparts (likely due to advances in conditioning) and therfore could use their larger size a lot more efficiently.

    In simple terms, SHWs are here to stay but smaller heavyweights can still obviously compete though. If they're skilled enough than i can see one holding a world title or possibly even becoming undisputed. Smaller heavyweights have a few advantages and thats them having (generally) better stamina, faster feet, faster hands and a smaller hit box. This combination will give anyone problems
     
  9. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ah yeah of course. Just like almost every center would make a terrible point guard.
    One has size (natural, not a developed skill) & strength. The other great court vision, ball handling passing & agility.
    They fill different niches.
    I have to give more credit, all other things being equal, to the guy whose sheer genetic size does not give him a big head start in things like physical dominance, blocks & rebounds.
     
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  10. Pugilist Specialist

    Pugilist Specialist Active Member banned Full Member

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    George foreman was a super heavy back in the 70’s that’s why he was able to compete in the 90’s. You saw he was a big ass dude who blasted out Frazier. Ali could compete with him because Ali was big too, just shy of super heavy size
     
  11. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    OK nice response. I will address the parts I contest. You say much that is true, just sometimes you might miss what I believe, & occasionally the causation might be mistaken.

    There is potential for growth in SHWs...That does not address whether folks are getting bigger, how much & why.
    It seems to indicate what size a successful SHW will be in the future.
    Sure they may be taller due to a larger population, better training for big men, 'mo better cheating (PEDs re: muscular size)...
    And the opportunities, appeal & rewards in the sport.

    Regarding tallness being selected for...It is a favored trait, but ue to shorter men & woman having tons of kids-no strong selective force-that has not changed in modern times.
    In fact all selective forces are mostly turned off: because when it is not very hard to survive & have progeny-when society prospers & all have more chances to breed & we help those who are less fit survive...
    And there is little genetic isolation so both random & adaptive traits (sometimes in extreme environments) can run rampant-& their is not random genetic drift due to a small founding population by pure chance tending towars certain traits...

    Genetic evolution will be minimal.

    Cagey point about Japan! But they & other far Eastern nations have already significantly increased height due to improved health care & mainly nutrition. Westernized diets are also increasing lifestyle diseases correlated with obesity such as diabetes, heart disease & certain types of cancer.

    Sure more folks from outside may increase the average height of Japan. But it is not much below most places now anyway, & that does not mean the difference between peoples are genetic...

    Which brings me to a final point. While we are just more often fulfilling most of our genetic potential as a species due to environmental factors, which account for most of the variation in height...There are some average differences between nationalities.
    But it tends to be small. The biggest variations are when you take a more granular look at ethnic groups, the smaller & more contained ones may have slected-or genetically drifted-to an unusual height. The few pygmy populations around the world are a dramatic example.

    There may end up being countries who catch up less than other say third world nations, because even with similar diets, maybe say Filipinos are shorter than South Asians, or Malaysians are a bit smaller than Vietnamese...

    But unless we are talking about very localized groups, when we correct for nurturein thr form of childhood circumstances, they are likely to be small.
    Epigenetics plays a fascinating role through generations at turning off or potentiating certain genes, usually due to ancestor's envionments.
     
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  12. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Eh, Foreman was SHW size, barely, by the standards of that time.
    he is an example of someone with disproportionate power for his size.
     
  13. Surrix

    Surrix Boxing Addict Full Member

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    The difference is that a very large size and weight athletes as usually considered by fans as fat or/ and at least clumsy and slow.

    To be an NBA athlete no one could afford to be clumsy and slow.
    While a lot of them does have better reach than even giant Valuev ( Valuev usually is evalued from his older 34+ y.o versions ).

    Boxers like Lewis and Wlad, despite their large size were able to get Olympic Gold medals. Olympic rules boxing prefers agile, mobile and sharp athletes with good reach for this weight class and they had this all to get Olympic Gold medals.
    Both were not only pro, also amateur superstars at world level.

    There are a lot of NBA dudes who with really very low fat % are 260 lbs and heavier.
    The problem to compare weight is that their height is easy to get, weight ins they does not have.
    And if there is elite basketball player with visible six pack and really considerably lager than even Lewis and Wlad, we might only calculate their weight.
    7 ft and even taller dudes are not at all rarity anymore in elite males basketball even in orgs not that well known as NBA, NBA is: the best basketball skills and best $ org in the world.
     
  14. Kratos

    Kratos Well-Known Member Full Member

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    You guys think we will ever get another heavyweight champion under 6’ in the near term future?
     
  15. TFP

    TFP Member Full Member

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    I'm stuck in an vvv boring work Zoom call so decided to put the height of every new heavyweight world champion [loosely defined, so someone like trevor bryan is in], during my lifetime [ish] into a spreadsheet.

    I concluded that the upward trend isn't as strong as you might think. If you were to cherry pick out Tyson [Mike and Fury] and Valuev it's really quite modest.

    Like I said, I knocked this out during a meeting so it may well contain mistakes. They're all somebody else's fault. The y-axis shows height, where 6 feet exactly is just under 183 cm. The second chart excludes the three possible outliers listed above.

    Hmm, seems that I maybe don't know how to post images. Hopefully people can see them.

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    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
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