Are there any real criticisms of Ray Robinson?

Definitely not glass jawed. Ive heard the Levine story before and it is worth looking into sounds like a bit of a Henry Cooper Ali situation.

 

I said they were high risk/low reward fighters, him and Williams.

But ok, there weren't any reasonable offers that were high reward. Let's put it that way.

 

The offer Harry puts so much faith in came from Burley's manager, not a promoter. Managers can talk all the pie in the sky numbers they want but when you dont have a promoter backing you its a different story. When Robinson returned to Pittsburgh to hype a match with Burley Burley quit his manager and went to Minneapolis. His manager there had the same problems with Burley that everybody did. He thought he should be paid as much as the stars in the division without having the box office numbers to justify it. When Robinson fought on the same card as Burley in Minneapolis (a common practice to promote a future fight between the two participants) Burley bitched and moaned that Robinson got paid more (even though he was the bigger star) and got better press. He left Minneapolis and never fought there again. Id say Burley was the one who wasnt willing to fight Robinson unless he was paid more handsomely than he proved he was worth, not the other way around. Its ridiculous that Robinson always gets the blame for this when at the time Burley outweighed Robinson by almost ten pounds. Fighters who dare to be great are often willing to take the short end of the purse in order to prove to the public that they are the best. Greb and Archie Moore fought for nothing in order to get their title shot. I could list many more examples. The fact that Burley wasnt willing to fight unless he was paid far in excess of what he was making already despite fighting a smaller less experienced fighter tells you all you need to know.

 

Im sure a quick search on this or any other boxing history forum will turn up a plethora of "why didnt Sugar Ray Robinson ever fight Burley? questions. We wouldnt be talking about here if someone hadnt presented it as a potential criticism of Robinson. Of course the wider world doesnt care. The wider world doesnt care about boxing. But among people interested in the history of the sports its heard commonly enough. I know Im not telling you anything you dont already know.

Thats not the way first hand sources or some of his previous managers tell it. Burley was well known for being a pain in the ass and very difficult to manage. Throw in the fact that he couldnt sell tickets and you have a difficult proposition on your hands for getting big fights. Most of these stories about Burley willing to fight this guy or that guy for peanuts in order to get a shot began and ended with Burley when he was alive. Yet you can follow the trail of managers he left in his wake who were disgusted by his wanna-be prima donna behavior.

 

Ahhh, yes...

Even Our 'Enry managed to convince himself that the break between the fourth and fifth rounds was extended by a couple of minutes when it was only six seconds.

 

If LaMotta and Hagler are 10/10 in the chin department, Robinson’s probably a 9/10. Not the greatest chin of all time, but a very, very good one and definitely not a weakness.

Probably similar in that department to someone like, say, Mike McCallum or even James Toney. That’s a pretty damn good chin.

 

Not facing Burley I suppose.

But also SRR is proof that post prime losses don't really harm a fighters standing. More people should apply this to the likes of RJJ etc.

 

Well probably the main reason Sugar Ray is generally regarded as the P4P King is because he had all the tools. A complete fighter including the intangibles, ring iq, determination etc. He has no glaring weaknesses.
If I had to nitpick it even ends up as a compliment to him but Ray had alot of ham in him. He didn't want to be overlooked by the public. So when he got in the ring he brought action. He was offensive when he could have stunk the joint out but won fight a little easier.
He wanted to make $. In those days you had to be special when the bell rings. There was no preflight 24/7 to get people's interest then go stink it out like Mayweather often did. You had to fight.

 

The big difference between post prime defeats from the likes of Robinson and even Ali is that they were not knocked out. Jones was laid comatose on several occasions. The nature of the loss is what impacts him more adversely than others and why Robinson gets a pass for these while Jones doesn’t.

 

See for me it doesn't impact him adversely and he gets the same level of pass as the others do.

People only judge RJJ this way because they lived through it, imo.

 

I don’t think so. The nature of the losses make a difference to how he’s perceived. Losing some points defeats towards the end of his career would have been okay. You can’t unsee a guy flat on his back. Reminds me of this:

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‘Who cares how a man should fall?’
‘When the fall is all that’s left, it matters a great deal.’

 

No cos only Tarver and Johnson knocked him out at LHW and he's obviously a massive favourite over them both in his prime.

The other stoppage losses were at CW, years later. I just find it hard holding them against him. Same as all the fighters I've mentioned so far, once you're past your best losses stop meaning as much. Like Tyson to Holyfield, Lewis, Williams and McBride. Holyfield to Toney, Hopkins to Smith, Kovalev to Canelo etc.

Jones achieved greatness in his career and a bunch of losses to guys he would have dominated in his prime don't change that.