Are there TEN GREAT HEAVYWEIGHTS ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Unforgiven, Jul 17, 2015.


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  1. HerolGee

    HerolGee Loyal Member banned Full Member

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    although she is on the road to becoming lohanized.
     
    HerolGee, Jul 18, 2015
    HerolGee, Jul 18, 2015
    #61
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Sanders and Brewster were "prime losses". And Lewis was in his prime when he lost to McCall and I'd say he was still prime when he lost to Rahman, and arguably a better fighter than he'd been in 1994.[/quote]

    Yes, that's reasonable (although different to what you've stated previously). Both have two prime losses as you see it.

    Here, we do disagree. It would only be "clear enough" if we could state that Wladimir had beaten/not lost to a better calibre of opponent. In 1991 Lewis matched his first ranked contender, Gary Mason; between that time and his retirement, ten years later he lost two fights. That's outstanding longevity, regardless of the order in which he lost versus the order in which Wlad lost. You're trying to suggest Wlad "clearly" did better because he won 22 in a row and because he did this in his prime; but there is no reason to ignore the good things both men did outside their primes, and there is certainly no reason for penalising Lewis for the excellent work he did outside his prime. #10 Gary Mason, then Mike Weaver, #4 contender Donavan Ruddock thrashed, #5 contender Tony Tucker thrashed, Frank Bruno, #8 Phil Jackson, then he loses.

    At a similar stage of his career, Wlad was losing to Ross Purity and beating Joseph Chingangu. I don't think guys like Bruno and Weaver were world beaters then, but that described run is as good as anything Wlad cobbled together up until pretty recently; and it doesn't represent the best of Lewis, at all.

    Maybe, but if you list his worst night only, of course you will give the appearance of nothing special. His best nights, against Lennox Lewis (who i'm sure you admit is very good even if you say he isn't great) and Corrie Sanders (who famously smashed out Wladimir) he arguably has a couple of wins as good as anything Wladimir has ever achieved (though I'd think Povetkin is better than Sanders personally). He was capable, on his best nights, of excellence.

    [quoteWell, I'm questioning whether 5 or 10 HWs in the whole of history can even be considered great, so clearly Lewis is not immune from the chop.[/quote]

    Right; which is why I asked if you thought it was reasonable, rather than fact.

    Yeah. I don't think it's alleged personally. In Vitali Klitschko he has one of the better wins in recent HW history, and in old Holyfield he has an ATG scalp that was still reasonably in tact. I'd argue that Razor Ruddock should be picked over every fighter beaten by Wlad on the night he beat them, with the possible exception of Povetkin; thereby, Lewis's fifth or sixth most important victory is comparable with Wladimir's best. On and on it goes.

    These are matters for opinion though, and i'd agree that Wladimir and Lewis are in the same clutch now.
     
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2015
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2015
    #62
  3. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Sure, Wlad has more "filler" on his record, and he took longer to step up . But it's reflected in the amount of fights.

    My whole point is, both Wlad and Lewis seem to score well on longevity and consistency.

    I think for the best part of those 11 years and 22-0 Wlad has been the #1 man and some fairly decent opponents (perhaps all second-raters but many contenders nonetheless) have been trying to knock him off the perch. In a similar situation Lewis did not last as long.

    Wlad was beating contenders in 2000, making his absolute longevity (prime/pre-prime/post-prime whatever) ahead of Lewis's.

    I'm not out to look at his "best" or "worst" nights, I was just trying to illustrate his level. He mixed with enough known operators for us to find his level.
    Take all his results, good or bad, across a reasonable stretch of his prime, and it will show his level.

    Just as Wlad and Lewis shows themselves good 'stand outs' through consistency against a mixed crop of relevant contemporaries, Rahman shows himself to be just one of the crowd.


    It's reasonable, yes.
    Even if I agreed with everything you said about Lewis being greater than Wlad, I don't think it's been shown how Lewis could be great and Wlad not great. It seems too close for me, either way.

    So let's, for argument's sake, be kind to them and say they are both great, then we have to ask how many others fit the criteria of greatness, now that those two have been given their passes.

    It's possible that they get in a top 5 based mainly on longevity and consistency, along with Louis, Holmes, Ali ... perhaps an "exclusive club of only 5".
    Maybe throw in Jack Johnson, but's that's very very disputable.



    I could argue that Razor Ruddock was an overrated hype job.
    I have no idea if he should even be picked over Tony Thompson, Eddie Chambers or Calvin Brock.

    Vitali and Holyfield are better than the men Wlad's been beating, yes, but they looked like tough fights for Lewis too, imo.


    Exactly. :good
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    #63
  4. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    ___
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    #64
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Your raise fair points about (previously) about jeffries fighting older fighters and taking too long for rematches etc. But, Hart, Martin, McVey and Johnson do not prevent Jeffries from clearing the division.

    When Jeffries beat Fitz, it was the equivalent for the time of beating Wlad Klitchsko by KO twice. When he beat Corbett twice, it was the equivalent of beating Vitali twice. Beating Sharkey and Ruhlin was probably like beating Povetkin and Chagaev. A win over Peter Jackson would be like beating a comebacking Lennox Lewis. Beating someone like Munro would be like beating say a tyson Fury, but he did do in a round or so. The Finnegan fight was no better than a Wach level fighter maybe even a lower level fighter but he did again win quick enough. If a fighter were to fight and beat those fighters right now, i would say that they have probably cleaned out the current division.

    Of the other fighters you mentioned Jack Johnson had lost to Hart and been KOd by Choynski why would you hold this against him, just because he was starting to build some good wins against fighters who were a level below what Jeffries had fought at. And couldnt beat Jeffries victim Hank Griffin. If David Price or someone starts to put together a good run now, should we criticise Wlad for not fighting him?

    Denver Ed Martin, was a promising fighter and would have made a great fight which Jeffries would have won with hindsight. One of the interesting things i find about Denver is in some articles i read from, i think it was, Bill Lang who was one of his best friends and a so so world title challenger. Lang says that Denver was the nicest guys in the world and a better than average sparring partner who just couldnt take the punishment and was just short of the top class. Looking purely at records it is hard to see, but i wonder whether the smart money realised even at this stage that Denver was not top class.

    MCVey had a pretty good record. But he was nothing more than a promising young fighter, of which there were many. You cant fight them all. McVey wasnt even a main level fighter when Jeffries was champ. He was just coming into his own but even then he had a loss to Johnson and Martin, so he was hardly screaming title shot. Not fighting McVey was like Wlad retiring before he fights Tyson Fury. Who really cares?

    Hart was just starting to come into his own when Jeffries retired. At best, not fighting hart was like when Lennox didnt fight Chris Byrd. He might have been the logical next in line when he retired but it was a fight noone cared about and noone can blame him for retiring.
     
    Boilermaker, Jul 18, 2015
    Boilermaker, Jul 18, 2015
    #65
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    They do; but consistenty and longevity against what is my point. Although being dominant is never easy, and getting into condition for fighting whoever whenever is always hard, I don't think Wladimir has really been in with many fighters who are better than Rahman, for example.

    Yes, on the one hand.

    On the other hand Lewis is the two time lineal heavyweight champ for a total of around six years.

    Wladimir's case is more complex because. Lewis took the title, twice, Wladimir had to begin a new lineage. Often, this is not satisfying. Such was the case here.

    Some count from when Wladimir beat Ruslan Chagaev. Chagaev was ranked #3 at the time, Wladimir was ranked #1. If you count from here (I suspect, historically, this option will win the argument) Wlad has his six years. But I, personally, count from his defeat of Povetkin, which means he has nothing like. This is because this is the first time Wladimir was ranked #1 and matched his #2 contender.

    But let's say we ignore this lineage stuff and just say, when was he dominant, when was he #1. I would argue, only when his brother was retired, WHEN Wladimir was ranked #1 or champion by Ring. This constitutes 2013, 2014 and 2015. Again, even if we ONLY allow that Lewis was "dominant" for the years he was lineal he is at worst equal in terms of longevity at the very top to Wladimir - and that is allowing that Wladimir was lineal from beating Chagaev, OR allowing that he dominated the division despite the presence of a long-lived #2 contender of the Wills type that he didn't meet (for very good reasons).

    In combination, I think the (generally accepted) higher level of competition that Lewis met and the clarity with which he rules makes him the clear choice. That's how I would see it.

    I know - but you did just list the losses etc. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy, but if you allow that Lewis was in his prime for Rahman's defeat of him (I do personally) that means Rahman has one of the better HW wins going even if you are right about Lewis (because he would still, presumably, be top 25 all time head to head in your mind - meaning Rahman poleaxed one of the best heavies ever). I just feel that needs to be said.



    I agree.

    Well I would expect anyone who sees Wladimir as you do to rank Holmes very highly also, yes. And Wills.

    Well that's certainly not what I have seen, but as we've agreed, that's a matter for opinion. I think Ruddock was a head above these, for the record.

    They'd be tough fights for anybody, ever.


    Certainly not worth arguing over and interested to hear your thoughts.
     
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2015
    McGrain, Jul 18, 2015
    #66
  7. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Why do you keep regurgitating this tripe? You one day made that up and have since ran with it as some sort of fact.

    If Wlad never lost , or say he just had the Purrity loss - people would say his prime was from 2000 when he beat WBO champ Byrd - 2014 when he flattened #1 Pulev .

    Any Wlad fanboi will tell ya the Mercer fight was his most impressive performance- an unstoppable wrecking force.
    Well guess what? Thats the version of Wlad both Sanders and Brewster destroyed.

    Not some pre/past/shot/ Wlad. The most impressive Wlad on film.

    He wasn't prime because he lost and your too much of a weasel to acknowledge Brewsters and Sanders victories.

    You're the type of guy who brings up the Brewster rematch as a legit win for Wlad but won't do the same for Brewster in fight 1.

    Question for ya?

    Who was more shot in those fights and who wasn't.

    Was it Wlad coming off two blow out wins or Brewster who had come out of a long injury induced retirement? What did Brewster go on to do and what did Wlad go on to do?

    During this mythical 07-12 phase , who did Wlad beat? What great fighter did he beat to prove he was so much better?

    Sam Peter was his best won during that period. How come Vitali came out of 4 years in-activity and was able to beat Peter a hell of a lot easier than Wlad?

    Because everybody knew that Peter was useless thats why.

    What makes Wlad so much better in this period when he was almost knocked out in the first and looked awful in the second?
    He looked so poor , even the Germans were booing him.

    Who else is there? He looked less than impressive again against a slow, weak punching Thopmson.

    11 rounds with Thompson and he came out of the fight with cuts and marks all over his face. If that was Sanders - it would have been TKO2 all over again.

    The guy lost while operating at the best of his abilities. With these excuses you can claim nobody ever lost a fight. Accept it.
     
    dinovelvet, Jul 18, 2015
    dinovelvet, Jul 18, 2015
    #67
  8. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    Your prime -then your past prime.

    Wlad never entered the ring past his prime.

    He was prime in the fight before Sanders and he was back prime again immediately afterwards.

    He met two guys who were better than him. Simple as that.

    Manny did nothing only hide his weaknesses by showing him how to hold and grab. Only Wlad exploited that tactic to the extreme.

    Take away that holding and he looks ordinary - as you saw against Jennings.
     
    dinovelvet, Jul 18, 2015
    dinovelvet, Jul 18, 2015
    #68
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Let's not forget that Wladimir came to the fore when Vitali was retired the first time.
    He had IBF title wins against Chris Byrd, Calvin Brock, Ray Austin, Lamon Brewster, then unified against WBO champ Sultan Ibragimov, and beat Tony Thompson, BEFORE Vitali came back to beat Samuel Peter, a man Wlad had already beat.
    I think Wlad was established already.
    Yes, it's debatable.
    And I know some people have arguments for Lennox Lewis being champ before 1999.
    But I don't think any rival titlist in 2007, 2008 was really casting a shadow towards Wlad as maybe Bowe, Holyfield were doing on Lewis in '93, '94 or '97 and '98.



    I'll throw in Holyfield too, I forgot about his longevity.


    I didn't see much from Ruddock. 2 or 3 KO wins over has-beens and bravely taking a beating from Tyson twice.


    I agree.



    Likewise.
     
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    Unforgiven, Jul 18, 2015
    #69
  10. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Pound for pound is different .. Louis for sure. Ali for sure. P4P Frazier and Marciano are right in there. Fitz without question. Jack Johnson as well. Charles is the overwhelming choice, likely one of the two ( along w Sam Langford ) best 168 and 175 pounders that ever lived. Floyd Patterson too ..
     
    he grant, Jul 18, 2015
    he grant, Jul 18, 2015
    #70
  11. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Agreed.
     
    fists of fury, Jul 18, 2015
    fists of fury, Jul 18, 2015
    #71
  12. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't believe that any of the three fighters who beat Wlad were better than him. They just hit him on the chin and unfortunately the big guy can't take a punch.
     
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    #72
  13. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Regarding Lewis being koed twice by for the most part single shots no doubt lowers his ranking all time to a point. However the difference between he had Wlad is he rematched both men who stopped him and stopped them both in very convincing fashion. The KO of Rahman I always looked at as atype KO one would expect from an ATG. Dramatic and destructive.
     
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    #73
  14. brb

    brb Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Don't kid yourself.

    Brewster
    Wlad was beating Brewster badly in the first fight. Brewster shockingly survived and won. Wlad rematches him and shuts Brewster down.

    Sanders
    This is the fight I think most people have in their mind regarding Wlad's 3 losses. Wlad got shellshocked in the first fight. In a rematch, I think Wlad would have beat him by a wide UD or possibly late stoppage just like most of his recent opponents. Wlad would be cautious the first few rounds while jab, jab, jab, right hand, hold. Don't forget Corrie is a southpaw so he will be much closer to Wlad's right hand.

    Puritty
    People don't bring this one up as much as Brewster or Sanders for good reason; Wlad was destroying this guy. Puritty doesn't offer much as he is a gatekeeper with limited skills. This would have been a nice easy rematch for Wlad, but Vitali handled him anyways.

    Lewis should get more credit for beating all of the fighters he faced which he does. Only Rocky Marciano, Rid**** Bowe and Gene Tunney can say the same.

    However, I'd rather be in Wlad's shoes and continue to fight championship level fighters and win title defense after title defense.

    Wlad only has 2 more title defenses after Fury to be #2 All-Time.
     
    brb, Jul 18, 2015
    brb, Jul 18, 2015
    #74
  15. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I mention Purrity all the time. Wlad was koed by a bum.
     
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    Perry, Jul 18, 2015
    #75
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