Are Today's Heavyweights the oldest ever

no one wants to end up like ali anymore, so the division has been filled by older fatboys, being better practised in faking style over substance.

 

Damiani had all the skills in the world, but Povetkin is way tougher than he ever was.

 

Being in the "mix" doesn't mean he'd be #2. Lot's of guys were in the mix back then. It was a competitive division and frequent changing of the guard is what happens when you have a weight class packed with young talent who challenge each other often.

Start a poll asking posters who they'd feel would win when placing Povetkin up against 1991 versions of Tyson and Lewis. I'd definitely pick Tyson and give a green Lewis 50/50 ods, who in that year was at the low end of the top 10.

If you've seen any of Dokes earlier fights he was actually pretty talented and certainly in great shape and well managed for Holyfield. On the evening Evander squared off with him it would have taken a genuine contender to beat him.

I think he'd get stopped by some of those guys especially if it turned into a shootout. The 2013 Wlad who beat Povetkin wasn't a prime slugger going for the gusto. He was a 38 year old fighter who for years had employed safety first methods, did excessive holding and still beat the **** out of Povetkin. I was watching that fight and texting backing and forth with another poster on this forum and we agreed that a kinder referee would have stopped that fight when Alex was getting his butt handed to him in the mid rounds.

Because he genuinely WAS the best. They had already signed to fight each other before Lewis had done a number on Ruddock.

Irrelevant.. Its doubtful that he would have been ranked #1 in THAT division for a period of close to two years regardless of who was holding the title at the time. And beating a "fat Douglas" for the crown was no worse than capturing a plastic fragment against a fat old Ruslan Chagaev.

Damiani was around #4 or #5 in 1989. His rating dropped to the lower part of the top 10 by the time he faced Mercer in '91, largely due to the division becoming more populated with better talent and also because Francesco hadn't done much over the previous year other than beat two journeyman. As for how he matches up to Povetkin? I'll grant you Alexander was more durable. But when it comes to skills, resume and power they weren't as far apart as one might think. Damiani could both box and hit. Poor conditioning was his biggest weakness - something he might get away with today.. Not the case in the early 90s.

Incidentally here are the ring ratings for 1990, 1991 and 1992.

1990
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Razor Ruddock
James (Buster) Douglas
Tim Witherspoon
Carl Williams
Francesco Damiani
Rid**** Bowe
Ray Mercer
George Foreman

1991
Evander Holyfield
Mike Tyson
Rid**** Bowe
Razor Ruddock
Ray Mercer
George Foreman
Tim Witherspoon
Tony Tucker
Lennox Lewis
Michael Moorer

1992
Rid**** Bowe
Lennox Lewis
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moorer
Tony Tucker
George Foreman
Razor Ruddock
Ray Mercer
Tommy Morrison
Alex Garcia


Those were some damn shark infested waters. I wouldn't bet on anyone from today's era with the possible exception of Wlad being #2, and even an aged Klit might not make the kut.

 

If we are discussing the time when Evander was actually Champion, there really wasn't a clear cut #2 when Tyson went out. There was just lots of guys in the mix, and Povetkin would likely be one of them.

Not really. You had Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Mercer..etc. in their own little bubbles seeing who could make the best impression beating up Ruddock, Cooper, or another guy like that.

Do you feel in order to be seen as #2 one would have to beat Lewis, Tyson, Bowe or some combination in 91-92? Because again, nobody in that time did. Ruddock was the only one who even fought at least two of them.

As far as the last part goes, I think Povetkin is a genuine contender who could have beat him and likely would have.

I doubt he would be sparked by Mercer or even Tyson at this stage.

He was still tagging him with his left hook money punch all night and couldn't put him away.

We could say the same for other displays of durability. But Povetkin carried on and took a one sided beating without ever close to being stopped.

And he got there with a run matchable by Povetkin.

Relevant because you brought it up as some time of trump card. In truth, Evander had a pretty easy road to the title and that's the reason he really wasn't respected and seen as a place holder until Tyson got it together again or a guy like Bowe came up.

No, its quite possible he could have achieved a #1 rating in that time if you sub him for Evander. The late 80s was actually pretty sp**** after Tyson's rampage.

Durability. He was dominating Mercer until his nose betrayed him. Than the ankle injuries hit, he gained weight, lost his motivation, that's that.

And who's really getting away with bad conditioning these days? Solis and Peter have been punished severly for their bad training habits.

Yeah but than the cookie crumbles...





[url]George Foreman[/url]

1. [url]Oliver McCall[/url]
2. [url]Rid**** Bowe[/url]
3. [url]Michael Moorer[/url]
4. [url]Lennox Lewis[/url]
5. [url]Herbie Hide[/url]
6. [url]Larry Holmes[/url]
7. [url]Henry Akinwande[/url]
8. [url]Jorge Luis Gonzalez[/url]
9. [url]Lionel Butler[/url]

The real problem is, you picked a point in history where there wasn't a clear #2 under a dominant Champion. It was open season with several top guys not fighting each other.

Some other times there was a clear #2 like the Povetkin/Wlad situation:


Ali
Foreman


Holmes
Weaver


Tyson
Holyfield


Wlad
Vitali

 

Tyson was around for the entire first year of Holy's reign ( Oct 1990 - oct 1991 ). The following Autumn he lost to Bowe. During that 12 month period after Tyson departed ( nov 1991 - nov 1992 ) you still had Bowe, Lewis, Ruddock, Foreman, Moorer, Witherspoon, Mercer, Morrison, and Holmes - a wealth of talent which combined young up and comers as well as seasoned veterans who were still dangerous. Not an environment where I'd pick a man who's best win was Marco Huck to be contending for a solid top five spot let alone top two.

Agree with the first half of that sentence. You can keep the other half.

Let's see.. You had Mercer who beat BOTH Morrison and Damiani in 1991. You had Lewis who beat BOTH Mason and Ruddock around that time. You had Bowe who beat Seldon, Coetzer, Tubbs, Biggs, Cooper and then fought Evander for the title. You had Tyson who had previously been a dominant champion for years and after his defeat beat Ruddock twice, stewart and was signed to fight Evander.. Doesn't sound like anyone hiding out in a bubble.

I see where you're going.. By that logic since none of these guys beat the ENTIRE top 10 to gain recognition as #2 then presumably ANYBODY could have taken that spot as if it were interchangable and meaningless. Would you honestly rank povetkin above most of the guys thus far discussed? Rid**** Bowe for example did more in four years than Povetkin has in 10. He accomplished a 32-0 record and became an undisputed lineal champion by beating a true all time great in his prime.. Hell povetkin has been around for a decade, still hasn't hit 30 fights, has Marco Huck as his best win and failed in his only chance to win the true crown.. Now do you see why I doubt his chances of making serious waves 25 years ago?

Could have? Maybe. A prime Holyfield certainly didn't find him to be a cake walk.

Because he barely survived a 38 year old Wlad who spent half the evening holding, and who had him down some four times? Or because you feel Tyson and Mercer just weren't that good and the fight would play out exactly the same way?

The Wlad of 2005-2010 never would have let a guy who was in that much trouble survive the distance and neither would a more sensible referee. Alexander was badly hurt and lost every round of that fight, with the possible exception of the one where Wlad was deducted a point for excessive holding. Tyson isn't going to hug him all night, and Alex sure wouldn't have Four chances to rises off the canvas.

Not ever being "close" to being stopped?? Bro he was down three times in round 7. under different rules THAT would have been a stoppage, and even without the three knockdown rule in effect, most refs ( or corners ) would have packed it in right then and there.

No he didn't and I've already covered my reasons why in a previous paragraph.

Yes I brought it up in response to your question which was ( did anybody stay at #2 for very long? ) My response to that was Evander was second best heavy in the world for more than a year and a half and the ONLY reason why his position changed was because he captured the crown. As for holy having an "easy" run to the crown, I'll remind you that he had already dominated an entire other division with very few fights. Fought in a 15 rounder with only 11 pro bouts in an all out war. THEN ascended to a higher weight class, fought several heavyweight including at least three legit contenders - one of whom gave him one of the best rated fights of the decade.. It sure as hell wasn't as soft as beating ancient versions of Donald, Rahman, Byrd, Chagaev and a green chambers.

Not sure I'm ready to give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who's only accumulated 29 fights over the course of a decade and fought the kind of comp that he did. Atlas wouldn't be able to protect him back in the early 90's like he did today.

Yes I commented on FD's durability when I conceded that Povetkin was more durable. And the fact that he was written off after the Mercer loss combined with his recent drop in rating prior to that fight, confirms my earlier ascertion that he was a fringe contender.. But one that I don't think was too far below Povetkin in ability or career track.

Tony Thonpson, carlos Tacom, Chris Arreola, Ruslan Chagaev, and Eddie chambers are just a few of the top heavy's over the past five years who have had a record of showing up looking less than ideal for either title fights or title elimination bouts. Hell Povetkin doesn't always look terrific either.

1. 
   
   
   I was under the impression that we were talking about the early 90's and not so much the mid when Foreman was champion, holyfield and tyson were both temporarily gone and Lewis had been upset by McCall. If this is what we have to do to give Alexander a shot a top five spot then so be it.
   
   
   There is never a "clear" number two in an era as strong as that. Who was clear #2 in 1973 shortly after Foreman became champ? Was it Ali, Frazier, Norton or Quarry? Would Povetkin be in the mix of that bunch too?
   
   Some other times there was a clear #2 like the Povetkin/Wlad situation:
   
   
   Ali
   Foreman
   
   
   Holmes
   Weaver
   
   
   Tyson
   Holyfield
   
   
   Wlad
   Vitali[/QUOTE]
   
   Of those four Ali-Foreman and Tyson-Holyfield were the only two that took place in genuinely solid eras.

 

Yes. Today's heavyweights are the oldest ever.

 

Now wouldn't it be nice if threads were that simple

 

:good

 

That's just a bunch of name listing to impress tourists. Yes, Povetkin absolutely could get a top 5 spot and like any of those of guys under the right circumstances could nail a top 2 spot at any given time.

No, its yours.

You better believe I was, and that's why I'm not impressed with this name dropping. I know the score. And you just in more depth described what I alreayd laid out. Mercer in his bubble, Lewis in his bubble, Tyson in his bubble, Foreman in his bubble, Moorer in his bubble...all these guys blowing in the breeze not touching each other with Evander chasing them around.

No. I'm suggesting Povetkin could match the achievements of the men who did grab the #2 spot in this time.

You are the one that wants to run a gauntlet of names in a unrealistic scenario.

Say Povetkin's team gets Ruddock fresh off the Tyson fights like Lewis, or Dokes off the Evander loss like Ruddock did, or he exposes Morrison or outboxes Mercer, or catches Franseco in the nose..etc. You got a top two guy there. Would he lose to Evander and probably drop back down the ratings..probably. But there's a good chance he would rebound come 93-94.

Who did prime Holyfield find to be a cake walk? Even his gimmes turned into wars.

Why was Wlad holding? Because the guy kept coming forward looking to bomb him.

Mercer just wasn't that good. Unless he had Morrison caught in a corner, he wasn't a spark you out guy. Especially a sturdy good fighter like Povetkin. Considering Tyson's struggles to finish a hurt Ruddock at this time, I have my doubts.

A strict ref wouldn't have counted a few of those knockdowns.

Bowe was busier but I don't see any outstanding wins unatainable by Povetkin unless you want to big up Seldon and Sir Bert Cooper.

Holyfield's cruiser dominance was a double edge sword. The achievements helped him but also was a stigma he had to shake off. I think Thomas, Tillis, Dokes, Rodrigues, and Stewart are roughly on par. Chambers is better than Stewart.

Do you define fringe contender as any contender that isn't a leading contender for a very long period of time?

And he wasn't written off, he was Holyfield's back up plan after Tyson, but the ankle injuries and following weight gain did him in.

Chambers got in shape and stayed fit to make his run. Arreola lost weight but got knocked out anyway. Thompson only flabby serious player right now, really more of a policeman to prospects than serious contender now. You think Takam is fat...

[url]https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.boxingsherpa/fighters/carlos-takam_1412465987.jpg[/url]

He has a shot at Quarry and Norton. Even fights.

Late 80s was a wasteland, man.

 

Evander vs. Povetkin would be a war. I'd love to see that fight.

 

Good post, the longevity of the guys around reflects the lack of depth in the division,imo.

 

Povetkin is 35 years old, what is his best win?

 

Chris Byrd or Ruslan Chagaev.

 

w!

A 37 years old Byrd and Chagaev, whose own signature wins were over Valuev and Ruiz .Wow! I watched Glazkov get gifted the decision against Cunningham recently. he is a top ten challenger!Pathetic, if Wlad continues to fight that level of opponent he can stay champ until he is 60!