Are Today's Heavyweights the oldest ever

Chambers, coming off the impressive Brock win and before his dominating wins over Peter and Dimetrnko.

 

A top 10 list half constructing of hall of famers and even a few in their primes? As a tourist I'd be pretty impressed.

Even if he somehow managed to achieve an alphabet #2 rating by beating tomato cans and has beens, much the way he did in his actual career, he still wouldn't legitimately be SECOND best in the world. Alex Stewart was ranked #2 by the WBA going into the holyfield fight in '89.. No one granted him acceptance as second best.

Rejected.

You certainly seem to have insight that few others I've encountered posses. Holyfield having an "easy" run to the top of the heavyweight division being among one of the best kept secrets.

Sure.. Mercer going life and death with a motivated Cooper then taking on Morrison and Damiani was staying in a bubble. Lewis fighting Mason, Tucker, Ruddock, Bruno and signing to fight Bowe was being in a bubble. Bowe compiling 32 pro fights in just 4 years and taking on Seldon, Tubbs, Biggs, Cooper, Coetzer then beating a prime Holyfield was being in a bubble.. Tyson fighting Ruddock twice then taking signing to fight Holy was being in a bubble...

Fine... If this is an argument about getting a brief alphabet #2 rating, then maybe he could have taken the Ruddock route and beaten a shot bonecrusher to get their as Razor did. but he wouldn't be second best in the world by any means.

And you're micro managing hypothetical scenarios, designing a strategic path for a guy you like to get in a high seat. Not much different.

In such an instance he might find himself fortunate to get a rating yes. but the point of my whole argument is that he undeniably the second best fighter in today's division. I can't see him being undeniably the second best fighter 25 years ago.. Not with that talent pool.

Adilson Rodriguez and Alex stewart were contenders and he pretty much dominated those fights. Rodriguez took the first round and then got bombed out in the second. Stewart had him rocked in the fifth but lost every other round. You've said time and time again that Holy dominated foreman, which frankly I think George gave a good account of himself, but we'll go with your contradicition. He dominated Holmes. He dominated Mercer.. He dropped Moorer five times in their rematch. He made Seamus McDonaugh look like a pile of wet towels..

And when ever Wlad threw a punch he sent Povetkin reeling. If Povetkin "kept coming forward" against Tyson he'd be out in three rounds.

If Alexander boxed wisely he beats Mercer. If it turns into a shoot out he likely loses.

They looked legit to me, and regardless of weather or not they were, Povetkin was in a heap of trouble.

Fair enough.. They fought comparable opposition, but Bowe beating a larger number of the same caliber opponents in less than half the time and looking a bit more emphatic in doing it says quite a bit.

There were many who doubted his chances due to his being a former cruiser, but he was also very highly regarded by experts going into heavyweight. Thomas and Tillis were shot fighters.. No dissagreement there on weather or not Alexander would beat those. Fighting a top form Dokes in an all out war along with Rodriguez and Stewart within an 8 month period doesn't coincide with the career trend that we've seen with Povetkin.

No.. I think a fighter's status can change as his career goes on and some of it has to do with the climate of the division at the time.. 1989 wasn't a terribly strong year when Damiani was ranked and by the time he fought Mercer two years later the division had strengthened while Damiani was fighting weaker opposition and likely passed his prime.. The Damiani Mercer beat was a very good win especially for a man with only 16 pro fights and who had turned pro late, but was also fringe..

Bert Cooper also ended up being his back up plan. Last minute substitutes generally aren't world beaters. and incidentally most people didn't even know who the hell Damiani was back then. Hell if not for boxrec, about 80% of the guys on this forum wouldn't know he existed.

Let's just agree that this isn't exactly the age of top conditioning where heavyweights are concerned.

Making those even money fights is a bold statement to make given that we're talking about a guy who Marco Huck gave fits.

Not a golden age by any means, but hardly a wasteland.. You had prime Versions of Tyson, Holyfield, Tucker and decent men in Williams, Witherspoon, Damiani, Bruno and Ruddock. You also had a fresh crop of the hottest prospects anyone had seen in years coming out of the olympics.. The division between 2003-2006 was a true wasteland as was the period from 1978-1981.

 

Chambers didn't dominate Peter at all, and Sam was a whaling 265 lbs for that fight.

 

I don't get these posters arguing that today's division is no worse than the 1990's. The eyes don't lie, the level of skill and fitness from today's heavyweights is just so much lower and it absolutely a reflection of a lack of young talent coming through.

Yes Povetkin is a decent and tough fighter, but if he is a number two in the division, that doesn't say much about the state of today's division. Who knows, maybe Joshua or Usyk will be that young guy to rejuvenate it, but the division has seen a lot of false prophets over the last decade.

 

He boxed his ears off. Peter was only a whaling 250+ for Vitali too.

 

It was an easy run, Tyson had already cleaned out everyone but Dokes and Spoon, and instead of Tyson or even the Douglas that beat Tyson, Evander got a helpless looking fat boy. Evander's credentials as a genuine Heavyweight Champion were questioned for years after that Douglas fight. You actually dispute this? You remember how it was. I don't recall Holyfield really getting due respect until he beat Foreman, and oddly lost to Bowe.

Look, you said the ratings was chaotic because the top guys were fighting each other. I challenged that by saying:

"Not really. You had Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Mercer..etc. in their own little bubbles seeing who could make the best impression beating up Ruddock, Cooper, or another guy like that. "

I'm saying it was chaotic because they didn't fight each other, it was all guess work about who did the best number on the second tier guys. And you are wanting to disagree really hard, but ultimately just keep restating what I said.

No, not my argument. Lets say we go back to 1990. We don't know Lewis is going to become an all time great Champion, we don't know Bowe is going to best Holyfield...we introduce Povetkin and he matches their wins or grabs some of their signature scalps...

No very real scenarios that got these guys recognized as the best contenders in their own time.

Back up there...My party line was always that Holyfield made that fight harder than it needed to be by trying to knock Foreman out.


"Foreman was dangerous in his comeback but could be easily outboxed because he was so immobile. Holyfield tried hard for a knockout because he was under a lot of pressure from his critics (sound familiar?) and got hurt a few times. "

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Like he had Ruddock out of there in three? Nah.

Povetkin started out pretty active against solid opponents and is returning to form again, but under Atlas, no we wouldn't see something like that.

We could bring up their worst moments too, like Quarry walking into Chuvalo's left hook or Norton getting demolished by a lanky cruiser not in Huck's league. Even money.

 

made ruiz look good? how does facing a late 30something and nearly losing make you look good.

how does being trounced by holyman make cooper look good??


god you write such utter shyte sometimes.

 

It was HARDLY an easy run.. Evander solidified his claim as the rightful number 1 contender by fighting three times in 1989, beating three top rated contenders in progression in just an eight month period - one of whom ended up being one of the best historical heavyweight battles of the decade.. All this on top of dealing with the disadvantage of jumping from a lower weight class..Tell me, when did Povetkin ever fight 3 "meaningful " opponents within an 8 month period let alone against ones who gave him any problems or with the disadvantage of rising in weight? Just admit it... It wasn't an easy run.. No need to argue it any further.

I can just as easily turn this around and say that Douglas "carried his weight well" the same way that you did by claiming that Lewis being a career high 256 lbs for Klit meant nothing or that Thompson being 265 against Pulev was meaningless, while in the same breath calling Dokes fat at 240 against Ruddock or Douglas a "helpless fat boy" against Holy.. I won't do this of course, but it sure is fun watching you play both sides of the fence..

There were some who couldn't accept that he had assimilated well into the heavyweight division. There were others like myself who rightfully ackowledged him as the best heavyweight in the world through the burden of proof that he was regularly knocking the **** out of ranked 200+ lbs men...

No.. Your statement was that they were living in bubbles as if to imply that they were playing it safe, and the fact is they weren't.. Just because they weren't constantly fighting each other doesn't mean they were taking the soft path.. I mean Lewis fighting Mason in his 15th pro bout then Ruddock in his 22nd.. Mercer fighting cooper in his 16th bout, Damiani in his 17th and Morrison in his 18th.. Bowe fighting Holy, Coetzer, Seldon, Cooper and Tubbs all within about a year of each other... Is it your opinion these guys were record padding? Christ Poevtkin's been a pro for 10 years and through some 30 pro fights and I'm still not sure that he's taken as many risks as some of these guys did in their first 20 fights and three years as a pro

The problem is that the men you're constantly labeling as being "second tier" weren't second tier.. You've reduced Ruddock as being more or less a build up guy that other up and comers beat on to get a rating, when the reality was that he was a #1 contender who many predicted to be the next champ!!! You treat Bert cooper as though he was a "gimme" opponent yet from 1991-1992 he did arguably better work than what a lot of today's top raters like Fury, Glazkov and Wilder are doing. That's just to touch upon a few examples, and no I have better things than to argue this point, precisely why it took so long to respond.

I think that's a great idea.. Let's see if Atlas is willing to fight Povetkin 32 times in a 3 year and 8 month period the way that Rock Newman had Bowe fighting or if he's willing to put him in with a dangerous puncher like Mason in his 15th pro bout. Or if Povetkin would be up to the task of taking on Francesco Damiani just a few months after going 12 rounds in a non stop slug fest with sir Bert making his face look like a basketball... Good suggestion :good

yes if only he can follow in their footsteps and do the same.. His actual career doesn't necessarily reflect it.. He's beaten far more washed up opponents than even those guys did and at far slower frequency... A better way to reverse things would be to say that I can think of about 6 or 7 guys from that early 90's crew could come into today's picture and easily trade places with Povetkin or even dethrone the incumbent champion.

Put Tyson in a situation where he has Povetkin in as much trouble as Klit did he's finishing him..

Povetkin was never what I'd call as being particualarly active and certainly not against solid opponents.. His wins over Chambers, Takem and Huck were ok... But Byrd, Donald, Rahman, Boswell, and Chagaev were basically done. The rest were obscurities or mediocrities.

Not even... Norton was in his 16th pro fight and a pretty good distance away from being the man who beat Ali. Quarry was a cruiserweight sized heavy who got decked by a legitimate heavyweight and one of the better contenders of all time.. Not really the same as being a full fledged heavy facing a cruiser and barely escaping defeat while being at your supposed best....