Are we witnessing the greatest of all time in any division right now?

As I said:

Maybe you can make a case for the early 40's as greater, but to get a clear view wins and losses has to be considered.

Saying "we have four guys only in this top 10 with ten wins against ranked opp" sounds a lot better than "we have four guys only in this top 10 with ten wins and ten losses against ranked opp".

 

Except they don't have an equal amount of wins and losses. Not even close. I just addressed that.

 

Then show that.

I repeat for a second and last time, maybe you have a case but only showing wins and not losses isn't a great way to make it.

 

Which middleweights from the 90s are beating LaMotta? You said “most” I’d be interested to hear.

 

Toney
Jones
McClellan
McCallum
Johnson
Kalambay
Hopkins
Jackson
Castro

 

Did you actually read my last post on Williams ? In what way is his MW resume against top opposition consisting of just about as many wins as losses ? I showed his winning record against several fighters he competed against in his prime at Middleweight, and is undefeated against several of them. He has a losing record to only Cocoa Kid and a drawing record against only Booker and Burley, the latter of whom should have won the series against Williams at MW had the ref not unfairly called it a NC.

But fine, I'll do it to get this debate over with:

Burley is 1-0 against Soose, 1-0 against Fernandez, 1-0 against Hogue, 1-0 against Moore, 2-0 against Wade, 2-0 against Chase, 1-0 against Joe Carter, 1-1 against Lytell, 0-1 against Bivins, should be 3-2 against Williams, and got unanimously robbed in a draw against Georgie Abrams and also drew with Coca Kid. That's certainly better than McCallum's 1-0 against Graham, 1-0 against Collins, 1-0 against Watson and the discarded (according to you) 1-1 against Kalambay and 0-1-1 against Toney.

Jake LaMotta is 1-5 against Ray Robinson, 1-0 against Williams, 1-0 against Cerdan, 1-0 against Satterfield, 1-1 against Villemain, 1-1 against Dauthuille, 1-0 against Lytell, 2-1 against Basora, 1-0 against Welch, 3-0 against Dellicurti and 0-1 against Marshall. That's without bringing up the WW's he fought that moved up against him, like his 3-1 against Zivic, his 3-0 against Bell and his 1-0 against Costner. If we don't count the elite 147ers, then his record is 13-9 against top world class MWs. Doesn't look good on paper, but 5 of them were from arguably the GOAT MW and P4Per ever, whom he still has a win against. I'd take that over Kalambay's 2-0 against Graham, 1-0 against Barkley, 1-0 against Collins, KO1 loss to Nunn and 1-1 (thus completely discredited according to your criteria) against McCallum.

Archie Moore is 0-1 against Teddy Yarosz, 1-2 against Hogue, 2-0 against Richards, 0-1 against Booker, 0-1 against Burley, 3-1 against Chase, 1-1 against Coca Kid, 0-1 against Wade and 2-0 against Bolden. That's a 9-8. Not the best, but I'll take a record against such opposition anyday over Reggie Johnson's 1-0 against just Collins, 0-2 against Castro, 0-1 against Toney and 0-1 against Jackson.

Eddie Booker is 1-0 over Moore, 1-1 against Williams, 1-0 against Marshall, 1-0 against Matthews, 0-1 against Chase and 2-1 against Shogue. That's better than Toney's 1-0 against Nunn, 1-0 against Johnson and discarded 1-1 against McCallum.

Tony Zale is 2-1 against Graziano, 3-0 against Al Hostak, 1-0 against Fred Apostoli, 1-0 against Georgie Abrams, 0-2 against Nate Bolden, 0-1 against Billy Soose and 0-1 against Marcel Cerdan. That's 7-5. Like LaMotta, it doesn't look pretty, but compare those wins against Julian Jackson's 1-0 against Herol Graham, 1-0 against Tate, 1-0 against Cardamone and 0-2 to McClellan.

And because I'm not in the mood to do this for everyone else. I'll just turn this into 7 wins for the 40's team the easy way. Lamar Parks is a literal nobody, at least Harry Matthews was ranked and had wins over rated fighters, as mediocre as his record probably is. Thomas Tate has only one win over Merqui Sosa and nothing else. Jose Basora has a win and draw over Holman Williams, a win over LaMotta, a win over Coley Welch and a draw over Sugar Ray Robinson. No amount of ''but dem losses'' is going to put him lower than Thomas ****ing Tate.

Burley > McCallum at MW
LaMotta > Kalambay at MW
Moore > Johnson at MW
Booker > Toney at MW
Zale > Jackson at MW
Matthews > Lamar at MW
Basora > Tate at MW
Arguably Williams > Hopkins at MW but it doesn't matter at this point.

That's taking your own ''a rivalry that ends in a draw is discredited'' criteria, which I frankly find quite ridiculous, as it throws away actual things that fighters have done in the trash for the sake of numbers.
So, there's the proof. I was right. Mister Greek Whatshisname destroys Seamus

 

Oh stop it Seamus lol, It’s funny with a lot of what you say about Walcott and the “eye test” when as far as I can tell you're enamoured with a couple “flashy” fighters.

 

I think Collins - LaMotta is a pick e'm.

 

Jackson - Basilio is a 50-50!

 

Castro couldn't even win a series against a 45 year old Duran, the ****'s he gonna do to LaMotta ?

 

Out modern him.

 

50-50 that the lil onion farmer lives.

 

Oh cute, it speaks in syllablles now. This may be a hard sentence to comprehend, but try to follow me here:

He couldn't outmodern a fat, concrete footed, 45 year old Lightweight.

 

He sure as S outmoderned a slick, fast post-modern fighter with post-modern skills in JDJ.

 

The guy who beat nobody but Reggie Johnson ?

Last time I checked, LaMotta managed to get a win over the greatest offensive machine in filmed Boxing, and had him struggle in several fights.