arguments for larry holmes being super over rated or under rated...which do u pick?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by highguard, Jun 28, 2011.


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  1. highguard

    highguard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    larry holmes is a very interesting heavyweight champion
    for me

    i can see the argument for him being counted in the top 3 of all time
    and having the style to beat a prime ali etc

    20 title defences, 7 years champion
    did well against top fighters like mercer and holyfield
    in his 40's

    this is the argument people give for him being under rated etc

    but here is the other side of the argument which suggests he is super over rated and might not belong even in top 10 of history


    he came along when the best of the 70's were getting old
    and beat 2 of those aging fighters in norton and shavers
    (one was a super close decison,other guy almost ko'd him)

    now he did post good wins against weaver and cooney


    now lets to more into the 80's
    where most of title regin was held

    he found reasons to not fight most of the top guys

    P.Thomas- nope
    micheal dokes-nope
    tim witherspoon- barely beat a green verison of him-never gave a rematch
    coetzee-nope

    couldnt really beat a light heavyweight in micheal spinks
    and got crushed by mike tyson

    and before you say he was old when he fought mike tyson
    consider that 4 years after this he beat mercer
    and 5-6 years later gave holyfield a good fight


    another thing
    i have noticed for some a great boxer
    he often had a lazy jab, held his hands from his
    face and got tagged alot

    watching the weaver fight
    he often seems unsteady on his legs
    and other times he looks amazing


    there you have both arguments
    which do you agree with?
     
    highguard, Jun 28, 2011
    highguard, Jun 28, 2011
    #1
  2. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Neither!!!! I really have only seen a few who overrate Holmes (ranking him 1-2 is extremely rare!!!!)....likewise only a few (usually agenda driven folks and/or trolls!) rate him outside of the top 10.

    ESB classic did a poll on HW greats:
    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4526400&posted=1#post4526400

    where 72 of 80 voted holmes top 10 material....only 1 put him in the top 2 and only 8 had his excluded entirely. 64 of the 80 placed him from spots 3-7....so I would say the vst majority place Holmes in 3-7 range and that seems very fair to me. I rate him 4/5.

    I would say by a consensus veiw of Holmes

    rating him top 2 is overrating
    rating him 8-10 is a slight underrate
    excluding him from top 10 is a big underrate

    Again the majority 64 of 80 or 80% have him rated in a general area of 3-7.

    Rated just about right most of the time, IMHO!
     
    PhillyPhan69, Jun 28, 2011
    PhillyPhan69, Jun 28, 2011
    #2
  3. highguard

    highguard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Apr 12, 2010
    yeah in general i agree with you,

    its interesting 2 guys who i box with
    one thinks holmes was like another ali

    the other one thinks
    he was just another wlad K
     
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    #3
  4. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Credibility on both sides of the arguement. All in all,he's rated pretty fairly on this site. I'd find it hard to rate him outside the all time top 5 heavies.
     
    Stevie G, Jun 29, 2011
    Stevie G, Jun 29, 2011
    #4
  5. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holmes was only a paper champion and a fraud .
    He is super overrated.
    (1) Holmes thumbed Shavers in their rematch.
    (2) Never tried to avenge his 2 amateur losses to Nick Wells and his amateur loss to Duane Bobick.
    (3) Never beat the old Norton he fought against and didn't rematch him.
    (4) fought nobodies during his reign and failed to win when fought against anything better .
    (5) lost his title to an almost disabled lightheavy
     
    frankenfrank, Jun 29, 2011
    frankenfrank, Jun 29, 2011
    #5
  6. PhillyPhan69

    PhillyPhan69 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Case in point!
     
    PhillyPhan69, Jun 29, 2011
    PhillyPhan69, Jun 29, 2011
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  7. highguard

    highguard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    stevie how come you it hard
    to rate outside of the top 5

    to be honest watching some of fights
    its not hard to do
     
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    #7
  8. highguard

    highguard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Apr 12, 2010
    stevie how come you find it hard
    to rate outside top 5

    watching of his old fights its not hard to do


    ohh and greg page
    another top guy in his day he managed not too fight
     
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    highguard, Jun 29, 2011
    #8
  9. highguard

    highguard Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Apr 12, 2010
    its funny
    that people rag for dempsey for not facing harry wills
    when talk about his placement in history

    but holmes non fights with page,dokes etc gets no mention
     
    highguard, Jun 30, 2011
    highguard, Jun 30, 2011
    #9
  10. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    gets off easy for not facing #1 contenders during his reign. mind bogglingly so.
     
    Swarmer, Jun 30, 2011
    Swarmer, Jun 30, 2011
    #10
  11. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :good
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    #11
  12. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :good
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    #12
  13. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :good both arguments are true...Larry had a good run but not against the best and no matter how you try to avoid the issue you can not make excuses for the majority of the 6+ people he avoided or navigated around.

    Like Foreman who also had a 2nd career you can take the 2 careers and join them if you like. Holmes was politically strong in his rein and his close decisions went in his favor except for Spinks 2 but the fact remains he never rematched a tough fight or unified the title.

    If that was Jack Dempsey they would have burnt him at the stakes...smells like a double standard
     
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    Bummy Davis, Jun 30, 2011
    #13
  14. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    In all fairness to Holmes,a Norton rematch was planned,as everyone wanted to see it. Earnie Shavers gatecrashed the party though.

    Yes,it is a shame that he did n't unify the title,but most of us recognised him as THE champ anyway.

    The Spinks loss came after Holmes was past it.
     
    Stevie G, Jun 30, 2011
    Stevie G, Jun 30, 2011
    #14
  15. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But it never happened .
    what do you mean ?
    Probably the same ones who tolerate the color discrimination and think that a win is a win is a win is a win is a win.

    Then Mercer was a total **** losing to that dead Holmes and Holyfield a huge fraud for failing to stop him.
     
    frankenfrank, Jun 30, 2011
    frankenfrank, Jun 30, 2011
    #15
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