As Johnsonwas called the Black heavyweight Champ when Jeffries a was King

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Oct 18, 2010.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    As Jack Johnson was called the Coloured heavyweight Champion when Jim Jeffries was Champ.and,since Jeffries refused to fight his black challengers,shouldn't Jeffries just be called the White Heavyweight Champion?



    Sorry about the thread heading, a glitch
     
  2. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,567
    Nov 24, 2005
    I don't know. I was reading an old article the other day that actually argued Jeffries was the first WORLD champion, and that his win over Peter Jackson gained him British Empire recognition and when he beat Fitzsimmons (considered champion by the Americans) it cleared up disputed lineage.
    That doesn't do much to minimise the issue of black Americans being excluded from American-dominated world championship (and contendership) but it suggests some of Jeff's claim to WORLD championship status already rested on beating a black fighter.

    The clarity of the championship and lineage was far less rigid and agreed upon in those days than historians have written.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    Unfortunately , the thirty seven year old Jackson was a tubercular and alcoholic wreck ,who had been retired for three years when Jeffries fought him.

    Therefore Jeffries win over him is meaningless.
     
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,539
    27,155
    Feb 15, 2006
    I guess it depends on how much weight the coloured championship carried.

    Jackson was a strong champion, and you have a strong era from Martin though to Wills, but when Jeffries came allong the coloured division was weak. Jackson was probably as good a scalp as you could get from a lineage standpoint.
     
  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    Jackson never got a square deal, when he became Champion,Corbett refused to rematch him,and Peter was probably allready slightly past his best.

    Jackson won what was billed as the Coloured Championship,from George Godfrey in 1888, he never defended it, and it was 10 years later ,[1898] when he faced Jeffries, in a farce of a fight.

    Prime for prime, Jeffries may still have won ,but what is certain, the 37 year old dying Jackson who entered the ring against the 23 year old Jeffries had no earthly chance of victory.
     
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,539
    27,155
    Feb 15, 2006
    No, but this was an era where a name could carry weight through years of inactivity if a fighter was not beaten.

    This was probably a prety good scalp to get at the time!
     
  7. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

    55,944
    10,366
    Jul 28, 2009
    People complain about the splitting of the title but back then, loooook what we have there. It's like a WBA champion and a WBC champion and no "unification" is possible.
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,352
    Jun 29, 2007
    Is it agenda time again? The papers of the time were clear that leading up to the fight Jackson was in shape, and has regained his form. In fact the betting people felt the fight was close to even. Sure Jackson was older, but the fight was essentially over in 1 1/2 rounds before any lack of stamina could come into play. Jackson did have a good first round. No rust was on display. While Jackson was past his best for sure, a green Jeffries did exactly what he is supposed to do without excuses. I could post the lead up and the fight report here for the objective minded people to read. The win earned Jeffries the British title, which one could argue in the 1800's was even with the American heavyweight title.

    Question, if Johnson was the colored champ when Choyshki KO'd him, would Choynski take that title?
     
  9. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

    2,355
    306
    Jul 30, 2004
    I've got no problem with anyone calling Jeffries the White Champion once he started drawing the line. World Champion should mean you defend the against the best in the world.
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,352
    Jun 29, 2007
    And he did. The bald truth is Johnson used the color line more than Jeffries ever did. I do think post for a brief window in time ( mid 1903-1905 ) Johnson could have been viewed as the #1 contender, but he could not get past Marvin Hart in what was billed as a high stakes elimination match, with the winner getting a chance at Jeffries.
     
  11. Rock0052

    Rock0052 Loyal Member Full Member

    34,221
    5,875
    Apr 30, 2006
    Ironically enough, this would also mean that Johnson was the White Champion.
     
  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    Well , you can't get beaten for a title if you don't defend it can you?

    George Godfrey had won what was billed as the Coloured Championship in a fight with Professor Charles Hadley, both Godfrey and Hadley were Light heavyweights anyway.

    A cursory look at Hadley's record shows no one of any note upon it, apart from Godfrey.His main qualification for fighting for this title would appear to be his complexion.

    The coloured version of the title must have been at its very weakest.
    Jackson was undeniably a stand out fighter in his prime, but he was a decade past that prime when he faced Jeffries.

    Jackson's sparring partner stated that Jackson developed a severe drink problem when he visited the UK in 1892.

    Jackson had two fights in England,but his last real stand,was his victory over Slavin that year,after beating up a nobody he retired had a no dec 4rds against a ham and egger,then retired again for another 3 years.I can find no merit in Jeffries victory over him.
    The coloured title was considered to be vacant, because it had not been contested in 8 years Armstrong and Strong met for what was billed as the vacant title in 1896 2 years before Jackson met Jeffries ,but you know all this anyway J.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    The question is, should Jeffries be called the White Heavyweight Champion instead of the World Heavyweight Champion?
    Can you address the question ?
     
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,567
    Nov 24, 2005
    Yeah, pretty much.

    But in terms of recognition and titles, Jackson was still considered world champion in some parts of the world, and was also arguably considered the most formidable "coloured" fighter too.

    Title recognition and real worthiness of a win are two separate things.
    Dempsey beat a rusty old inactive Willard, a win that could be dismissed under certain standards, but the title/championship status of the fight cannot be disputed.

    Jeffries-Jackson had aspects of title status attached to it, either directly or retro-actively.
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

    97,718
    29,050
    Jun 2, 2006
    Jackson never held the British Title.

    He was ineligible to fight for it ,as was the man he beat for the Empire and Commonwealth Title ,Frank Slavin.
    Jackson was a Virgin Islander and Slavin ,an Australian.
    This is academic anyway as the title was not sanctioned by the NSC,until 1891, and not recognized by the BBBof C until 1929
    The first recognized official British Champ was Jack Palmer 1905-1906 hardly a name to strike fear into the world class scene.

    As late as 1934 Larry Gains was denied a chance to fight for the British Title because he was Canadian by birth, he had to content himself with challenging for the, less prestigious Empire, and Commonwealth Titles.

    Jeffries of course, being an American, also did not qualify.

    The rule has since be relaxed as the status of the current Champion ,Zambian born,14 fight Derek Chisora , [soon to be involved in a mismatch with Wlad Klit] , shows

    Since Jackson was tubercular , an alcoholic , and had not fought in 3 years , can you explain how he had regained his form ?

    If you accept that Jackson had regained his form, I put it to you that,Jim Jeffries was in the shape of his life when he fought Jack Johnson.:good