As long as you stand up to Mike Tyson you can beat him

So what? He didn't manhandle other of his opponents in the same way.

It didn't look like a waste of energy when his opponent took advantage of that. Tyson didn't look rested in any of Holyfield fights.

 

What are the evidences of that?

 

Evander Holafeld

 

Him being 40 lbs heavier.
Just look at strongman or armwrestling. Athletes are at their strongest when they bulk up.
But large muscle mass also has it's downsides, like diminished speed, reflexes and stamina.

 

Although it definitely made him stronger, it's not easy to say how much stronger he really was.

Most armwrestlers aren't that massive.

The best comparison in this case would be greco-roman and sumo wrestlers, as these two sports are mostly related to pushing/grappling etc. It's true that usually the more muscles you have ,the better but only up to some point.

Some of the strongest sumo wrestlers ever (Chyionofuji, Kirishima, Takanosato, Asashyoryu) weren't that massive.

 

It should be noted that Douglas was a substitute for Trevor Berbick 3 days out. There's a fair bit of difference in their styles. Probably wouldn't have mattered really but there's been plenty of talk regarding late substitutions in the past. .

I wouldn't be reading too much into Page being 236 pounds vs 239 1/2.

You sure Douglas dropped Page?

 

Incorrect. Page was rated #6.

 

Who did Page's manager suck off to keep him ranked #6?

 

You don't go from #3 in the world to completely outside the ratings with one loss. Barely ever happens and nor should it. You drop down and your conquer slides up which is exactly what happened.

Coetzee was #2 when Page knocked him out cold. The two losses immediately prior where to Witherspoon who was one of the top rated heavyweights and Bey who was then cut well into the rankings.

 

Be they factors or not, since when did lack of 100% focus, commitment, prep etc. become NOT measurable attributes re a fighter’s overall quality and greatness?

Since Mike Tyson it seems.

If that’s the case then a good number of Mike’s vanquished opposition should initiate a class action to have their own careers reviewed for revised ratings - exonerating them from and dismissing all of their own understated performances (incl. those v Mike) that were wrought with their own back stories and extenuating circumstances.

This could impact on Mike again since the “absolute” credit he received for beating said fighters would have to be graded down accordingly.

Point being, Mike’s career is often impossibly edited and cropped so as to hold him in the best possible light - admissible negatives being deemed inadmissible - his defeated opposition and contemporaries are not afforded any where near similar treatment.

As to EVEN the young version of Foreman, he clearly employed far greater strength in the ring than Mike ever did. That strength was also served by Foreman’s greater dimensional size and associated advantages in leverage and applied technique..

Among many others, 21 yo 218 lb Foreman easily manhandled 216 lb Canadian strongman George Chuvalo, including hurling him easily half way across the ring and into the ropes early in rd 1. AS with his power, George’s strength also transcended even his own great bulk so Mike weighing in close doesn’t mean a lot.

Mike would be similar putty in Foreman’s hands.

 

I think it's more than fair to take into account Tyson's unarguably terrible shape going into the Douglas fight. It's all on record in multiple places and there for all to see. Greg Page knocked him down hard in sparring and it's on film as well as Don King turns pure white.

Now this is his own fault and part of his record but unfortunately for him he didn't get the chance to avenge and Don King's woeful antics are partly to blame for that i'd say before Tyson's own in going to jail. Tho he didn't look to be the same technician post Douglas that he was in the Rooney days he was still very effective and had some renewed drive. After missing the Douglas rematch it all would have come down to Holyfield but prison beckoned.

It's very fair to say after a 4 year break he wasn't the same fighter tho he could certainly still wing them. It's part of his overall resume but certainly not reflective of him at his very best.

I fully understand the frustration the nut huggers evoke as every single thing is black and white and cast in stone and Mike is invincible.

 

Then why are you ****ing arguing, he who thinks highly of himself? You're a little ***** and I can see right through you. Now what? You want a cracker? Go **** your mother!

 

You want to talk about weight as amateurs, well how about age being a factor? Tyson was what, 16 years old? Holyfield was 20 or 21 at the time. They were amateurs with headgear. Besides, we still don't know exactly what happened. If Holyfield held his own, all good on him. But to say over a decade later that this had an impact on Tyson is ridiculous. Tyson barely trained for Holyfield, or as you like to call him, Tyson's boogeyman.

 

One of my points was that if Mike’s opposition was similarly analysed Tyson wouldn’t have been rated beyond what he actually was.

The more rabid fans didn’t care if Mikes foes were in any state of disrepair or the whys or wherefores behind same. Tyson’s pinnacle fight just so happened to be against his most sh*t scared opponent. At every turn,
Mike’s credit was calculated without deductions.

Then Mike’s day comes, he loses and then there’s 1001 excuses for same - as if no other fighters went into a fight in less than perfect shape but still came through with the win.

He was just 24 yo, a “deemed” 42-1 favourite. If those odds were a true reflection of the perceived superiority of a 100 % fit Tyson, then a 90% or what have you Tyson should still have got the job done.

Sure, Page dumped him, however, one could say that can happen after rds and rds of sparring, off day or moment. It was an excellent counter right hand by Page anyhow - but again, it’s all about Mike and not the other guy.

Now take the fight itself. Mike’s weight isn’t indicative of a fighter badly out of shape. If the Page KD was to mean something substantively, then with the power shots Douglas was landing from the outset, one might’ve expected him to win even more quickly or secure at least one earlier rd KD himself before knocking Mike out.

You have to have a very good level of fitness to take the shots Tyson took, try to keep fighting back as he did and also execute the heavy KD of Douglas in rd 8. We all saw what it took to put Mike down and even then he was still trying to get up.

We can harken back to the Tillis fight to point to some hints as to what it would take to beat Mike and there are similarities that can be drawn to what Douglas brought to the table in bigger and better fashion.

The common saver to Mike’s less outstanding performance in the Tillis fight is that Mike had not yet hit his prime. LOL, it never stops. I think the Green fight followed that, another distant fight and then Mike was back on his destructive path - enter the “start” of Mikes “prime”, voila.

There’s more than exclusive editing and cropping ONLY where Mike’s career is concerned.

People also forget that Mike looked so much less impressive (albeit still impressive) after the first third or midway point of a fight than he did in the opening early rds.

Finally, it seems a good number of people like myself believe that Douglas on the night was not going to beaten by Tyson whatever the circumstances.

To expand further on that last point, the version of Douglas that turned up in Tokyo can be strongly argued to be Tyson’s best opponent to date in manifest terms - and therefore Mike losing in that context isn’t the anomaly that people suggest or would like to believe.

 

Lol the hate is strong in this one! He's a tough guy as he hides behind a keyboard!