Aside from Ali , who beats Lennox?

I'd say you could make a case for Holmes, Tyson, Liston, Holyfield (obviously prime version).

I give Foreman a chance, Frazier and Louis much less of a chance.

 

You think Sonny Liston beats Lewis much likelier than Joe Louis? Please explain this.

 

Liston had the better chin and longer punches.

 

I don't rate it the greatest win of all time tho it might make the debate. Ali is nothing like Lewis and his style at this later stage (he wasn't PEAK) meshed well for Frazier.

What did this great win do for Frazier when he fought a big massive punching heavyweight in Foreman?

Comprende?

Lewis also took punches from bigger hitters, and we saw what they didn't do to him.

Lewis was a flawed fighter when McCall got him and he improved his style and tactics extensively post McCall. He also avenged the loss. How did Joe go avenging Foreman?

It's fact that Lewis had not travelled across entered camp early enough to acclimatise. The dates are there. He was gassed from the get go and looked horrible. This is not the average Lewis and sure wouldn't be fighting Frazier.

Evidentally Lewis came straight back and obliterated Rahman to show the first fight was a misnomer. This was a Lewis not that far from retirement and advanced in age. How did Joe go avenging Foreman?

I'd like a pound of what you are on. Lewis was tagged plenty of times in his career and by punchers as big and bigger than McCall and Rahman.

What do you think he is, a Heavyweight version of Wilfred Fricken Benitez? LMAO

Here is ALL of what Holyfield said about Lewis and his ability to take a punch. Please read slowly and digest something for once!

BEST CHIN
George Foreman: I would say George Foreman. I hit him and I hit him a lot of times, a lot of times (Laughs.) … 17 punches one time! Lennox Lewis had a great chin. I went back and watched the fights and the people who knocked him out [did so] because he had a different mindset for them. He didn’t fight smart with them ‘cause he felt he could beat them. Everybody he pursued and thought that he could beat, they ended up knocking him out – that’s Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. I came to respect him ‘cause I know in the last fight I buckled him a few times but he didn’t go. Mike Tyson had a good one, too; he didn’t fall when I hit him.

What was Seamus saying about stupid reaching a new level? Beating the heir apparent not a proud moment? Be much better to be bounced up and down off the canvas ike Frazier yeah?

When in trouble it pays to have a plan B or options. Guess who did and didn't?

Please read Evander's sage words. Hopefully they sink in.

Frazier has no hope of catching Lewis the way Rahman and McCall did for various reasons that you either fail to comprehend or plain won't. Lewis was mostly a back foot fighter against the most dangerous fighters post McCall after Steward got a hold of him. He was aging and woefully underprepared against Rahman and paid for it. It was never going to happen again.

He avenged both.

Lewis got up against McCall to but wasn't allowed to fight on despite his eagerness too. One can't say the fight should not have been stopped but both Holmes and Louis have been allowed to fight on in a similar condition as has hundreds of other fighters.

If Frazier faced all the punchers Lewis did you better believe he's getting put down. He wouldn't be able to get a guy like Rudduck out of there so easily so he's going to taste that ridiculous left hybrid. Interesting scenario. David Tua would also be so much more difficult for him. Plenty of others too.

Lewis has taken plenty of big pounches. If he's as good defensively as you try to twist he's the greatest or second greatest defensive heavyweight in history.

What was Seamus saying?

Lewis doesn't have to avoid blows when Joe is back in the dressing room recovering. Do you think Joe is going to waltz around for 15 rounds with a Lewis?

Do you remember how many blows Ali landed? You claim it ruined Frazier! Imagine Lewis hitting him half as many times.

You only see one side of the story.

Chuvalo also said Frazier is susceptible to the uppercut. Guess who has a great one?

Ali wasn't real big hitter. Solid but not top bracket as shown by how many times he hit Joe and Norton.

Chuvalo says Mike DeJohn hit harder than Frazier too.

No Lewis never took a punch from a big hitter. Where's Seamus.

Frazier can't hit Lewis when he's been stopped. Fights over. Getting so many shots in against Ali is vastly different to getting them in with a big man like Lewis who has the capacity to take his head off just like Foreman did.

From many accounts Frazier had a poor camp before Foreman. It's obvious it wouldn't have mattered. Lewis avenged to right the wrongs, just like Joe Louis. Joe didn't.

Both are great fighters, absolutely.

What i hate is that debating a guy like you makes me look for the worst in a guy like Joe Frazier due to your obnoxious standard of debating. You drag me into criticising a guy i actually admire, a real warrior. It's no big deal or knock on him for me to think Lewis is a reasonably safe bet against him. Lewis is an obvious stylistic drama for him and i think he'd fare better against the likes of Holmes, Holyfield, Marciano, Dempsey etc.

 

Better chin based on what? He took the ten count against Ali and Leotis Martin, quit on his stool against Ali the other time.

Liston never fought any atg punchers like Louis did. The best punchers on his resume are Williams and Patterson. Neither come to mind when thinking of atg heavyweight punchers.

You do realize in boxing the goal is to have a shorter punch right? Long punches are easy to see coming a mile away. Any reach disadvantage and Louis makes up for that with pure quickness.

 

Obviously the Ali fight was a fix... Anyone knows that. Citing that is always a real stretch.
The Martin loss can be tossed because Liston was a shell...

Louis got knocked down on the regular. By regular guys.

Liston had the longer reach and longer punches.

 

Sonny Liston starches Lewis, just like he did to Williams

 

I think Sonny has a fair chance with Lewis for obvious reasons but I don't think the Calibre of Listons opposition is in anyway a fair example towards what he might do to Lewis. Lennox beat men like Bruno and Ruddock. I don't think Williams ever qualifies as a version of Lewis.

Sonny v Lewis is a 50-50 fight though.

 

What "regular guy" knocked down Joe Louis? Where were they ranked at the time?

 

None of this changes the point I was making.
Mcvey made the claim that Rahman's punch on Lewis would have the same effect on Frazier.
I doubt that.
Frazier took similar or harder shots from Foreman and got straight up.
And Foreman was better than Rahman, it should be said.
A better fighter, a better puncher. In my opinion.

 

What makes Rahman a "puncher" outside of knocking out Lewis though ?

There's a double standard. When someone says Bonavena or Quarry were good punchers you scoff at the suggestion.
But you're happy to lump Rahman in the "puncher" category that only Foreman on Joe's resume is in, apparently.

Most heavyweights can punch, so don't think I'm saying any of these mentioned weren't "punchers".

Foreman was on another level though.

 

The win ruined Frazier. Ali was a real force at that time. Unbeaten. He already just stopped the two best contenders. I think it is the best win of all time. Joe paid a terrible price for winning.

Lewis beat them. They didn't hit him. Frazier would hit him because he hit Ali more than anybody did when Ali was still hard to hit.

yes It funny. All fighters were flawed fighters when they lose..apart from Joe Frazier.

It's great Lewis avenged both shattering knockout defeats. But stop with the excuses. It's embarrassing. Bottom line Lewis beat better guys than he lost to. In his prime.

Mercer and mason hit him. The rest of the guys he beat Lewis controlled them in a Jack Johnson type of way. Nobody says Johnson survived the pounding of Jim Jeffreies do they?

one question, did Holyfeild hit harder than Joe Frazier?

Lewis showed heart against Vitali but he scraped through by the skin of his teeth. He actually was forced to trade in that fight. A very rare thing for a fighter who depended on absolute composure to do his best. Yes it did tick a box for me in his very last fight. But the question was Lewis survived the power of Klitschko- and I said he did by crudely hanging on like a limpit. It was not the most graceful spectacle was it?

Like unforgiven says there was no need for a plan B. Lewis was counted out.

An ATG has no hope. Did you just say that? An all time great, on his best night, has no hope of catching Lewis at all?

This was commendable

This is a bit lame. Lewis was going to continue on those legs?

Would you campaign for Trevor Berbick to continue against Tyson?

When was Joe Louis so badly hurt?

finally you make a good point! I knew you might get there eventually. I agree with this point so please congratulate yourself. Frazier had a short tiny prime. Overall I rate Lewis higher than Frazier because of his longevity and consistency based on a strong resume. So yes, Frazier is great for a shorter number of fights. If you select only a number of Lewis' best wins Frazier knocks them all out. but if that number covers all the guys Lewis fought (and there were a lot more of them) Frazier would eventually get knocked out you somebody Lewis beat. But since Lewis did too I don't see this as a huge thing. Prime for prime I believe head on Frazier is a bad match for 90% of all champions and I chose to include Lewis in that number. Sorry.

Fighters approach men differently yes. In a short prime if you select only the best nights of Frazier I am convinced Ruddock and Tua never coped with such a man. To expect those two to do well is to expect them to do something extra that we never saw them do. Two non champions beating an ATG. I don't think so.

Lewis was tall enough, wise enough as the best heavyweight to use his size to his full advantage to make sure Tua didn't hit him. He was kept at arms length. If he grazed Lewis once I never saw it. Tua could not cut off a ring.

Probably something bizarre. Do you think he has made a convincing point?

Why would I think Frazier would need to recover? I think He's hitting Lewis first. He hit Ali first a lot of times. And Ali had a better chin than Lewis.

Do you think Lewis had as fast hands as Ali? This only means something if he did. I'm sorry that is a poor point.

Lewis hit hard for sure but he Did become cumbersome and ungainly trying to find the room to set himself when he's being rushed. We saw that in a few fights. It's not unreasonable to suggest it for this match up against a prime pin point Frazier.

why is it obvious? Again this is your opinion. Which declining fighter ever beat a great fighter after a poor camp?

I happen to have a difference of opinion to you. I read opinions that differ to mine and so long as a thought out reasoning is behind it then I don't hate that person. This business of hating somebody with a difference of opinion is rather childish. All of my points are backed up and explained. Neither of us are wrong. We just differ.

 

Liston would batter Lewis with the jab, like Mercer did.