Aside from Ali , who beats Lennox?

I'm not sure why people doubt that Frazier was past his best against Foreman, when they're the same people who insist Tyson was not his best for Douglas, and Lewis was horribly off his best against Rahman.

Frazier, to his discredit perhaps, had been in a lot of wars and his body hadn't held up too well. He was hurt by the Ali fight in particular. No one ever doubted that. It was incredibly gruelling. Frazier had suffered injuries, well documented. On top of that, we have all the same familiar stories if him having a bad training camp and partying and not being focussed.... All the same excuses Tyson gets for Douglas. If you like that sort of thing.

It's weird how a guy who's evidently been in the wars, savage fights, hospitalized etc., is given less leeway than a younger guy who had none of that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither saying Frazier could ever have beaten Foreman, nor am I saying his loss to Foreman shouldn't count against him.
But it's not surprising he'd seen far better days.
No heavyweight in history can have fights like the 1971 Ali fight and hope to be same afterwards. It's debatable whether Ali recovered or not, whether the effects manifested later on, and Ali was the most exceptional boxer in the division's history. Fights like that take it out of you.

Frazier deserves far more credit than he's being given around here.
Regardless of whether you think he could beat Lewis or not, or whether he'd be out for the count against Hasim Rahman.
At least accept the blinding obvious, his style wasn't built for longevity. There's no surprise he was damaged goods after a few years at the top level.

Maybe that makes him less great too, of course.

 

Ali had two fights in 4 years lets not beat around the bush. This was not the best Ali. If he'd had a few more warm up fights he would have been better, but still not the best Ali.

Frazier wen't to the depths of the well after this fight. "Ruined" is too dramatic.

And Lewis had oodles more power than Ali, and a great uppercut. You know, the punch Chuvalo said Frazier was vulnerable to that Ali did not overly possess. He also had much more size than Ali.

Lewis would not be standing in front of Frazier for 15 rounds, i'd back him home much sooner.

If you're claiming Lewis did not show extremely notable advancements in size, strategy and technique post McCall you are living on a different planet.

What advancements did Frazier show post Foreman?!?!?!?!

Facts are facts. Plenty of prominent writers and experts have noted the same. Evander also noted differences.

Do you like apples? -

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Best punch for best punch? I'm not sure. Holyfield knocked out some big men. He also had power in both fists, not just one.

How graceful did you find Frazier yo yoing against George? Some still think he even kicked his own ass! Thankfully video shows differently but that was the going story.

Truth be told Lewis exchanged heaps with Vitali without clinching. It was the second worst Lewis we ever saw too. At far earlier stages Joe was getting stopped by a contender. Lewis went out on top of the world.

There were heaps of fights when Lewis showed versatility, whether defending or attacking. Do you see Frazier tying up Vitali if he needed to?

The way Rahman did and McCall? No. This is the peak version of Lewis, not the big hitting open version or gassed out unclimatised version. Frazier isn't getting this level of complacency. Fantasy fights are best vs best.

Well how could it not be?

Others have and some have won. Lewis was not as bad as Berbick. There are dozens upon dozens of examples scattered throughout history. Lewis was the heavyweight champion, it would not have been unique to let him have a crack.

If it's a point you think strong maybe i should have avoided it.

Ah there it is, you did not even understand that i mean top versions of Frazier could fight these guys and someone (or multiple) is going to drop him.

If Frazier fought all these guys over the time period Lewis did he would rack up multiple losses.

It's a complete different era. Who is to say Tua and Rudduck would not be champions in another time.

The way you think is that no contender could ever have beaten a proven champion, which is of course ridiculous.

Here we go with the myth of Lewis being the great defensive fighter and never having been hit. Thankfully the video i posted above puts a helluva lot of egg on your face.

I think it was 100% on point to say the least. Like calling water wet or the sun hot.

Lewis has the durability off the back foot to handle whatever Frazier lands. Frazier won't handle what Lewis lands, which is no embarrassing thing. The guy hits like a truck and has been knocking out giants the size and strength of which Joe never had to contend with for years.

He wouldn't need more than a fraction of what Ali landed.

Being rushed by someone of Frazier's height who is open to the uppercut does not bode well for Frazier. WE've seen Joe with a big hard punching great with a top uppercut before.

Oh please. Also quite funny you now describe Foreman as a great fighter at this point when you wax lyrical Foreman had never beaten anyone and should not have even been able to fight Frazier!

Your comprehension fails you again. I never said i hated anyone.

At this point however i will leave the last word for you lest i end up like Joe Frazier after the first Ali fight - ruined.

 

I readily accept Frazier came off a poor camp and wasn't peak for Frazier - absolutely.

When however Chok keeps thrusting McCall and Rahman forward as to why Frazier is going to level Lewis in a fantasy fight, which is best vs best, well i am going punch back in the same vain. I thought you may have been able to read between the lines on that one. I made it pretty obvious in my last paragraph two (mine) posts back, which answers the rest of your post here really.

Having said that it's a bit better example of the problems Lewis would pose (Foreman fight) than Rahman and McCall is for Frazier, imo.

 

Frazier has his fans in here, he has his detractors, he has guys with balanced opinions of him. Tyson, Lewis, Jones, Hopkins and loads of others all have plenty of detractors in here who don't give them a fair go. SRL, Hearns, Duran, the list goes on.

 

One of your finest.

 

This is not the only point I make. Lewis demanded absolute composure before he could land uppercuts. It's not unreasonable to believe this even if Lewis could be seen as the favourite here by most. My money is on prime joe.

 

You still cannot seperate Frazier of the Foreman fight from the Ali fight. All the speed and precision you afford Tyson against Foreman Frazier had in abundance against Ali, who by the way had more rounds of action than Frazier did over their respective last two fights.

If you cannot spot the difference between Frazier against Stander with Frazier against Ali then I don't know what to say.

After the Ali fight there was real concerns that Frazier should never fight again. An exhibition match with Cleveland Williams as a test to see if joe had any punch resistance left worthy enough that he should continue. That's how touch and go it was.

Yet Foreman shows us exactly where Lewis fares against prime Frazier?

It is not so simple.

 

Don't want to discredit any ATG HW's here, but if we match 30 best HWs of all time against each other (that means 29 fights for any of them), does anyone suffer less than 3 defeats? I highly doubt that. Even Ali, Louis and other great HWs will get beaten a few times. Not only styles make fights, but boxing is also such highly competitive sports and has such a long history that it's hard to be better than literally anyone through sports history.

Again, if we match 30 best HWs in hypothetical fights, I doubt anyone on that list suffers less than 3 losses, and even 3 losses would be great result (if achievable at all).

 

1st off, the Ali bout was fixed. Liston was only down and out ONCE in his entire career when he was over 40 and had the flu and that by a brutal combo. Liston's chin was much better than Lewis's. It's not really debatable.

 

Louis was knocked down many many times. Many by men who were a fraction of the puncher and overall fighter Lewis was.