Aside from Wills and Langford, who are the best men of his day Dempsey never fought?

Langford was blind in one eye after being stopped by Fulton in1917 .
Fulton lasted under half a minute with Dempsey .
Fulton stopped Langford again in1918 as did Wills twice that year Langford managed a draw with Jeff Clark.
1919. The year Dempsey won the title
Langford lost to Meehan drew with Jack Thompson twice and lost to Wills.

1920. Langford drew with Godfrey lost to Wills lost to Lee Anderson and lost to Jack Thompson.

1921. Langford drew with Lee Anderson, drew with Brad Simmons twice,drew with Jack Thompson,drew withTopeka Jack Johnson,lost to Lee Anderson,drew with Brad Simmons,lost to Anderson again ,and lost to Bill Tate.

1922.Langford lost to Wills,lost to Tut Jackson,drew with Ted Jamieson,,drew with Bearcat Wright,drew with Jack Taylor,and drew with Jim Jam Barry.

No point in continuing further into Dempsey's reign.
So explain to us,which of those years I have given did Langford deserve a title shot?
From1919 until 1922 which year would Langford be a credible opponent for Jack and likely to give him a hard fight?

Joe Jeannette. When Dempsey agreed to box an exhibition for a war charity in September 1918,an exhibition in which Dempsey not only was to box for free ,but also paid his own travelling expenses,and an exhibition in which he was to box Joe Bonds,Bonds did not appear and Joe Jeannette challenged Dempsey to a fight.Jeannette was a month off of 39 years old.Dempsey ,realising he was being set up sensibly declined.

Jeannette retired at age 40 in1919 the year Dempsey won the title he was not a credible opponent for Dempsey.
Do however carry on with your character assassination of Dempsey ,at least whilst you are dong it Jack Johnson is getting a rest!!!lol

p.s. Source for Dempsey's management saying Langford was too good?
N.B. I already know where this comes from, the mouth of Bert Sugar who told and repeated nearly as many fairy tales as you do! The exact quote from him is as follows.
"Sam we were looking for somebody easier." Never verified and not mentioned in Moyle's excellent biography of Langford!

 

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If you want the most dangerous person Dempsey Never fought, that would be Godfrey who was ranked in Ring Magazine's annual rating debut in 1924.

I think you answered your own questions! I never put any dates on them, you felt the need to do so.

Dempsey never fought Wills, Greb or Norfolk, balked at Jeannette in the ring & ready to go, and passed on Langford

You can take a read any book you wish, you'll never learn.

 

It's a dead cert you wouldn't answer any of them!
Langford was not relevant during Dempsey's prime years it would have been a crime to match them.Dempsey took the exhibition as a bit of fun in a good cause for which he was not going to be paid why would he want to take on Jeannette in a real fight for nothing and at such short notice?
Very classless act by Jeannette, similar to the fouls he perpetuated against Johnson in their series which btw, you know **** all about, and the lies he told about his weight in their matches,all of which you lapped up with your Simon Legree spoon!

Of course the request for the source for your quote will remain unanswered as allways!

FYI.This is Godfrey's record in 1924...

1924 Mar 31 Tom Cowler Philadelphia, Pa LF 2
May 12 Walter "Farmer" Lodge Philadelphia, Pa KO 3 Jun 23
Jack Thompson Philadelphia, Pa TK 3 Jul 19
Jack Townsend New York, NY LF 1 Sep 8
Jack Renault Philadelphia, Pa L 10 Dec 1
Joe White Philadelphia, Pa KO 1

W3 L3 2 of those wins were over Dempsey spar mates!
You ****ing wanker!

 

Where is the evidence anyone was doing research on Dempsey's early career? If they were, why would they confuse a Jim Johnson fighting in the west with a Battling Johnson who was in New York City?

So where would a sportswriter get info on Dempsey's early career? Unless they were going to travel about the west and plow through old newspapers, the most likely source is from Dempsey's camp, which is Kearns.

Kearns didn't manage Dempsey until 1917, but he did manage Dempsey when this mistake was being made. Where would Kearns get the info about this Jim Johnson? From Dempsey, I assume.

I stand corrected about there being a Jim Johnson on Dempsey's early resume, but remain suspicious about how this Johnson got confused with the Battling Johnson who held a victory over Wills.

 

on the original question,

Harry Wills,
Harry Greb,
Kid Norfolk (1920 & early 1921)
George Godfrey (1925)
Jack Renault (1924)

In fairness to Dempsey, he did defend the title twice in 1920, and although Kid Norfolk would I think have been a more worthy opponent, demanding him rather than Miske and Brennan is a minor criticism I think.

Renault had somewhat of a checkered early career, but he had a good run in 1923 and most of 1924 and would have been a decent defense. The problem with Dempsey is that he was defending against no one at all in 1924 and so why not Renault.

Rickard himself listed Godfrey as among possible Dempsey defenses for 1925, along with Wills and Tunney. Again Dempsey was fighting no one at all.

 

Fair enough criticism of my point. "Establishment" is not a precise term. And perhaps it would be better to say the powers that be, led by Rickard, gave Wills the run-a-round more than they downgraded him, although there clearly were plenty of efforts to minimize Wills as a threat to Dempsey, both while he was champion and for decades afterward.

 

They didn't fight in late 1914.

The season at Garrick theater was opened on September 21, 1914, the last card of the year being on Dec 21, as on Dec 28 there was a wrestling bout and it was desided to stage no boxing on that date.
Here's the list of all bouts held there during that period:

Sep 21, 1914
Danny O'Brien W4 Lee Morrissey
Young Maloney W4 Young Ad Wolgast
Glen Gutke W4 Joe Pelcher
Ray Jackson D4 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
Kid Schmidt W-KO3 Mickey O'Brien
Owen Douglass D4 Oscar Taylor


Sep 28, 1914
Jack Carpenter D4 Charley Midkiff
Young Gilbert W4 Mickey Farrell
Young Ad Wolgast W-KO2 Kid McGee
Oscar Taylor W4 Battling Hanson
Young Gus Buffmire W-KO2 Kid Schmidt
Jack Meyers W-KO2 Young Cody


Oct 5, 1914
Eddie Duffy W4 Charley Midkiff
Young Gilbert W4 Young Ad Wolgast
Young Maloney W4 Young Jimmy Brittain
Mickey Farrell D4 Young Gus Buffmire
Jack Lewis D4 Kid McGee


Oct 12, 1914
Young Gilbert D4 Young Gus Buffmire
Jack Meyers W-KO3 Ned Young
Young Ad Wolgast D4 Young Maloney
Glen Guttke D4 Kid Emmett
Jack Lewis D4 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
Joe Miller W-KO1 Lester Griffith (AMA)
Marvin Gould D4 Fred Ireland (AMA)
Herb Brown W4 Kid Lavine (AMA)
Joe Wood NC2 John Littleton (AMA)


Oct 19, 1914
Oscar Taylor W4 Battling Brady
Young Gilbert W4 Mickey Farrell
Jack Downey W4 Young Herrera
Kid Davis D4 Jack Meyers
Ray Jackson W-KO2 Sailor Clifford (debut)
Kid Irish D4 Marvin Gould (AMA)


Oct 26, 1914
Danny O'Brien D4 Jack Carpenter
Jack Hogan W-KO3 Arthur Taylor
Battling Billy Johnson W-KO1 Battling Hanson
Kid Bobo (colored) W4 Kid Schmidt
Ray Jackson W4 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
Kid Abby W4 Pug Dyle


Nov 2, 1914
Kid Emmett W-KO3 Jack Hogan
Battling Billy Johnson W4 Young Ad Wolgast
Young Herrera W4 Mysterious Jimmy Brown
Marvin Gould W-TKO3 Young Culver (AMA)
Charley Wilson W4/L4 Lou Vance (AMA) - Telegram claimed Wilson won, Tribune said Vance won
Jack Dempsey W-KO1 Young Hancock (AMA)
Carl Schmertz D4 Frankie Burns (AMA)
Herb Jacobson W4 O. U. Schmertz (AMA)


Nov 9, 1914
Battling Billy Johnson D4 Young Gilbert
George the Greek W4 Jimmy Johns
Young Ad Wolgast W4 Ray Jackson
Marvin Gould D4 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
George Hendricks D4 Lester Griffith
Kid Taylor W-KO1 Farmer Burns


Nov 16, 1914
Battling Billy Johnson W4 Young Maloney
Tom Crawford W-KO2 Young Gus Buffmire
Young Brownie W-KO2 Wood Hayes
Ray Jackson W-KO2 Danny Riley
Oscar Taylor W4 Battling Hanson
Jack Hogan W4 George the Greek


Nov 23, 1914
Young Gilbert W-TKO4 Ray Jackson
Young Herrera W4 Charley Midkiff
Kid Emmett W-TKO3 Mickey Kane
Glen Gutke D4 Jack Hogan
Marvin Gould W4 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
George Hendricks D4 Lester Griffith


Nov 30, 1914
Danny O'Brien D4 Young Herrera
Battling Billy Johnson D4 Young Maloney
Tom Crawford D4 Kid Bobo (colored)
Young Ad Wolgast W4 Cyclone Lefty
Jimmy Johns W-TKO3 Kid Emmett
Jack Dempsey W-TKO1 Bill Murphy


Dec 7, 1914
Young Jimmy Brittain D4 Joe Pelcher
Jack Downey W-TKO1 Jack Happon
Young Maloney D4 Young Ad Wolgast
Charley Midkiff W4 Kid Bobo (colored)
Jay H. Brunsell W Fighting Lopez (AMA)
Kid Nelson D4 Kid Coogan (AMA)
Young McGee D4 Young Griffith (AMA)
Kid Ham W3 Bill Williams (AMA)
Kid Blondie W3 Kid Lenny (AMA)


Dec 14, 1914
Young Gilbert D4 Battling Billy Johnson
Jimmy Johns W4 Lonny Tucker
Tom Crawford W4 Red Newey
Kid Emmett W4 George the Greek
Bud Tucker D4 Kid Eph
Young Brownie D4 Oscar Taylor


Dec 21, 1914
Young Herrera W4 Jack Meyers
Battling Billy Johnson W-TKO4 Red Andrews
Two-round Farley W-KO3 Kid Bobo (colored)
Young Ad Wolgast D4 Bud Tucker
Cyclone Lefty W-KO3 Kid Mack (Mush McCabe)
Kid Battler W-KO3 Kid Mauler

 

“The hell I feared no man. There was one man I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford.” -- Jack Dempsey


Dempsey also admitted in 1970 that he turned down a fight with Langford in 1916 because he didn't want to lose and knew he wasn't ready for him. Fair enough for a young fighter, but it is Interesting wills as a young fighter wasn't afraid to take on mcvey Langford and Jeanette in 1913-1914

 

While Jack was climbing out of the ring instead of facing Jeanette , Sam faced Joe Jeanette. Here's a recap of the fight from F. Hurdman-Lucas:

“Those who are continually barking that two men of colour never put up a good fight had better creep back into their kennels right now. A few more slams like the one we had on this night and the whole world would worship at the shrine of Pugilisticus. I am prepared to uphold the contention that the Langford-Jeannette battle has been the greatest fillip to the noble art in France since the Harry Lewis-Leo Houc contest. Never have two heavyweights put up such a grand slam as the two above mentioned rivals did on this occasion.

From the world “go” it was apparent that things were going to hum on this night, for even the 1st round seemed too fast and severe to last. Both men went all out from the start, and how they kept up such a lick is just a mystery of the flesh of which Jeannette and Langford alone seem to hold the secret. It has been said of the latter that he was a 10 round fighter, and that after such a distance he fell away into insignifigance. Whence came these opinions heaven only knows. True, Sam was getting a trifle tired when the end arrived on this occasion, but he had not left off punching for 20 rounds, and they were punches, too, no butter pats here.

Although less weighty, Jeannette’s deliveries were perhaps more academical, but they failed to disturb Langford’s equanimity. At long range Joe had a great deal to say with the left, which often reached his opponent’s face and stomach. This last-named portion of Sam’s anatomy stood out in comfortable prominence, by the way, but manager Woodman says that his famous colt’s rotundity amidships is natural, and not at all composed of fat. Be that as it may, Jeannette made many attempts to bury one or the other of his fists in that black bolster, but Sam remained unmoved.

At close quarters, Langford’s boxing was positively deadly, while Jeannette seemed all at sea. It is when at half-arm striking distance that all Sam’s devastating work was accomplished, for he was as unsuccessful at full range as Jeannette was at short ditto.

For the first five rounds, Jeannette actually appeared nervous, a thing that I had never before noticed in him. But now that we have seen Langford in his full war-paint this apparent anxiety is comprehensible. I would sooner face a battery of cannon than the Boston Tar Baby.

As the 13th round was rung in there were many who saw a possible winner in Joe, for the more he goes the better he gets. Not that his blows worried Sam in the least, but they counted as points. The usual tremor reigned in most hearts as the fateful round commenced, for one almost felt that something was in the air. All anxiety was being dispelled when suddenly Langford shot out his right when close up, followed by a formidable left hook. Down went Jeannette, the while Langford lost is footing and fell across his prostrate opponent. Joe sat up and looked round him with glassy eyes until the count of 9 came along. Slowly raising himself, he stood near his corner with back to the ropes for support, as a shower of water reached his quivering body. This action gave rise to loud cries of protest, but these were lost in the excitement of the moment. Another right and left came along, and once more Jeannette was on the boards for the full respite. With that leonine courage that never foresakes him, Joe regained his feet, but was no sooner up than these refused to carry him, and he fell for another count. He was, however, up again, leaning against the ropes when time crept up. Sam was just agout to let go the coup de grace when the gong put the brakes on. It must have sounded good to Jeannette if he really heard it, for it is more than possible that another few seconds would have seen the end of the battle.

Jeannette regained his corner, and with his habitual recuperative powers started off the 14th round as if nothing had happened. He even forced matters, and at the end of the session had well held his own. Cries of “Bravo, Jeannette!” greeted his efforts. Joe actually had the best of his man in the 15th round, and, although Langford was, as was the call all through the fight, by the way, terribly dangerous, Joe took chances, and scored with many hard lefts and a right. Sam’s chief contributions were two – a rat-tat postman’s knock, lefts, and some hard stuff at close quarters.

Throwing purdence to the winds, Jeannette went all out in the 16th round, leaving his jaw open for a left hook in the process. He was positively asking for it in his mad pursuit, and it duly came. For a few seconds his legs shivered, and he tottered. It was but a momentary trouble, however, and his left shot out on time.

Both men appeared strong in the 17th session, albeit Jeannette’s punches carried little sting. Langford’s blows were as weighty as ever, and many must have been the prayer that went up for Joe.

A terrific right swing just grazed Jeannette’s chin and slithered off, thus giving him a life. He was still boxing with his jaw exposed, and it seemed as if nothing but a miracle could prevent a punch paying a visit. Luck favoured him, however, in that Sam was taking a rest. The next two passages were, strangely enough, for Jeannette, for, where he appeared, as is usually the case with him, to be getting fresher, Langford was beginning to feel the strain of his incessant punching. So it was that, with full confidence, Joe sailed into his man with left after left. Each time Langford waded in close, however, there was another tale to tell, for those nasty, crisp jolts and short hooks created deadly havoc. Jeannette opened the 19th round with a series of right uppercuts, and so succussful were these proving that he brought out at least half a dozen more ere Langford could get a punch home. This meeting was entirely in Joe’s favour, and his partisans began to see the glimmer of a draw. But these hopes, frail though they wee, completely broke down in the 20th round.

Going all out for a decisive win, Jeannete seemed to forget that Langford might be doing likewise. Leaving himself totally uncovered, Joe slammed in several lefts and two right upper-cuts, when a fearful left smash on the mouth drew a cascade of blood, and slowed him right up. A left and right on the top of this sent Jeannette to the ropes, where he stood in groggy condition. It seemed once more all over for this fine athlete, but he had retained sufficient lucidity to duch all the mighty rights that were aimed at his jaw, and by judicious clinching, finished this memorable fight on his feet. The applause was deafening, for whereas Langford had shown all present that he is undoubtedly the most redoubtable heavyweight in the world, Jeannette gave one more splendid proof of his toughness.

As Willie Lewis truly said after the battle, “My advice to fighters is, leave Langford alone. He’s all very well to meet once in a lifetime, but no more.” All this makes us wonder what knd of a man must be Gunboat Smith, if reports of his victory over Langford be true. It seems too incredible. Jack Johnson must now meet Langford, or forever forfeit the respect of those who still see in him the rightful world’s titleholder.”

 

Interesting read here on Langford


December 27, 1913 – The Winnipeg Tribune published quotes from the Director of French Boxing, Mr. Vienne. Mr. Vienne had proclaimed the fight between Jeannette and Langford as a world’s championship contest. He explained his reasoning for doing so as follows:

‘People say to me, ‘If a world’s boxing championship is organized between two qualified men, why is the winner of the title not entitled to hold if forever?’ I reply, not in words, but with facts, clear and distinct, and then ask the public to judge. The title held by Jack Johnson is held vacant because it is not admissable in sport for a man to legitimately hold all his life, or at least as long as he pleases, a title which he obstinately refuses to defend against qualified aspirants. Nobody can contest that principle. Now, I have repeatedly offered Jack Johnson an opportunity of defending his title in Paris, under the usual conditions of a participation in the receipts, with a guarantee of $25,000, then $30,000. Jack Johnson has always refused.

In an interview Jack Johnson had in Paris with Victor Breyer, then my associate, and later with Leon See, Director of Boxing and Boxers, he made the same public declaration which remains still without denial. ‘I will not box again, ever for a million.’ Since coming to Paris, Jack Johnson refused an engagement to meet with me. He wouldn’t come himself, but his representative came, only to declare to me that Johnson did not wish really to meet a capable adversary in order to maintain his title, but only adversaries of a secondary nature. Under those conditions no one can be expected to submit to Johnson’s fantastic (financial) demands. The sporting public has ever right to rebel and place the title open for public competition that which the holder, because it is too much trouble, does not wish to defend.”

 

A contender is under absolutely no obligation to meet another contender.

He may decline the fight for any reason, or none at all.

 

Dempsey said this about when he was a kid [1916,] managed by John Reisler a complete arsehole who wanted to overmatch him with GunBoat Smith and Langford,If you think this is a stain on Dempsey you need serious psychological help! Wills didn't have the options Dempsey had because he was BLACK !
I know this is a revelation to you but there it is!

 

Vienne never offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against Langford. He did offer him$30,000 to defend against Jeannette in a fight to the finish which Johnson refused saying he didnt want to fight Jeannette over more than15rds, a distance which he had beaten him over.Vienne was full of **** ,he instigated the withdrawing of recognition of Johnson as the champion and had Langford recognized in his place after he beat Jeannette 3 weeks later the French Federation withdrew Langford's recognition and against proclaimed Johnson as the champion,no one outside France took any ****ing notice of this absurd man. Breyer was a reporter.
Leon See was a flesh peddler, the first pilot of Primo Carnera and "orchestrated," over 30 of his early fights which he later admitted to in the "Mystery Of Carnera " as such he was good company for Vienne, two ****s together.
Fact 'Johnson signed to fight both McVey and Langford in Australia for promoter Hugh D McIntosh the offer was withdrawn when Johnson jumped bail.
Fact. Johnson signed to fight Jeannette twice in NY for the MacMahon brothers whose grandson is the wrestling promoter.The NY boxing commission vetoed both fights and threatened any promoter who staged it with having his licence withdrawn.

 

Stupid comment right from the off.
Nobody ever suggested," two men of colour didn't put up a good fight".

What they stated and this includes Jim Coffroth,Tex Rickard ,Barney Curley,and Mike Jacobs the 4 biggest promoters in the world for over 50 years!That two blacks don't draw flies! If you want to challenge that statement, [and you have made yourself very busy trying to dig up detrimental info on Johnson and Dempsey,]look up what Jeannette and Langford's purses were for their fights!" Langford's biggest purse by far was for his fight with Iron Hague he and Jeannete were fighting each other for chump change.Johnson got $31,000 plus a% of the film rights for toying with Jim Flynn a man he had already ko'd, why would he fight either of them for less than his standard $30,000 a defence?

 

Langford refused to fight Al Kaufman whom Johnson played with, anything to say about that?