Assessing Larry Holmes's all time heavyweight standing

What can I say JT, I’m a transparent, open and honest guy. A paragon of virtue.

Yes, it is my “curse” but it does allow me to harshly judge and elevate myself above all others….

 

You'll fit in well

 

Fair enough, think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

1) You'd have to ask McGrain to be certain.
My guess is - Spinks = yes, massively so.
All the others = I doubt their loses to Holmes had a big, if any, positive impact on their position in this list. Maybe Norton's close lose positively influenced his standing by 1 or 2 positions. Certainly nothing that made any contender Holmes missed, better than the best fighters he beat.

2) Again, you would need to ask McGrain. My guess is, quite possibly if Thomas fought and beat Holmes, though it may depend on his defences and how his career unfolded thereafter, and certainly not if he fought and lost to Holmes.

 

That’s an understatement, it was a huge fight. Far bigger than he likes of a Dokes, Thomas, Page would have been. It’s dismissed a bit now as people act like they always thought Holmes would win but that wasn’t the case at all, many in the trade tipped Cooney to win- that’s how highly rated he was, until he lost.

There wasn’t much call at all for Larry to fight most of those alphabet strap holders at the time, due to the fact they typically lost their crown in the next fight or two. Page was the one that got a lot of press calling Holmes out over a period and that’s the fight that should have happened and ‘maybe’ Thomas, but by that time Larry was fading and was looking for easier paydays. He seemed keen on the Coetzee fight as there was big money in it. But like the others, he was soon beaten and without as many $ signs, Holmes lost interest.

 

Jack’s always been in my top 5.

 

No he was not big by measures for many decades now.
He had decent height & length, not near the most, but good.
But his prime weight was 209-221, if you cap it at the fight before Witherspoon-even after Witherspoon but before the 1990's he weighed only marginally more, & due to body fat.
As looking at him affirms, he just did not have much muscle mass for a modern HW.

None of this is a knock on him, just the facts.

Also if you add mass with handspeed you will have many that beat him.
Folks like Dokes Tubbs & many others just from his era.
BUT the OP is correct he did so many things well-only quibble I have is the understatement that he was only "reasonably" talented.
His savvy toughness physical attributes jab etc. & well roundedness make him a top ATG HW.
Everyone you compare him to has flaws, so...

I cannot se how he could be higher than 3 or at least not in the top 10.

 

Lewis had flaws but also had many great fights & a higher average quality of opposition than almost any HW.
Tua was perhaps overly cautious, not a poor showing or close.
Everyone including Holmes had close fights-Lewis did not have consensus *losses* like Holmes-maybe he deserved Witherpoon, but likely not Williams.

Methinks you may be biased if you think despite not being dominant that he should have lost to Mercer.
Who tired late, due in part to conditioning.
But it was close...

 

People quickly forget how often Lewis was called ‘boring’ back when he was champ. But he did the best job required and adopting those tactics against someone with a massive concrete troll head was always going to be for the best. He made it look an easy nights’ work.

 

Aye, straight from the Holmes - Shavers I textbook.

 

Mine too. His technique was quite ahead of his time when you think about it. Many modern heavies would have found him a nightmare to fight.

 

Cooney obv is there because of Holmes. It’s the only fight that proved he could compete at the top level. His best wins (Norton and Young) were only fringe top ten guys and Young was kind of inconclusive.

 

Again, unlike Dempsey with Wills or Wlad with Vitali (the latter is understandsble from a human perspective, but thats irrelevant to his all time ranking), Holmes didn't miss a contender better than the best fighters he beat.