Hi Mike, Thank you for kind words, very much appreciated. I compiled my MW top 20 a couple of years ago. Some of the research I've done more recently for Rummy's top 25 boxers by decade thread, makes me think if I revaluated my ordering now, I'd have Greb above Monzon, too. The deeper you look into Greb's resume the more incredible it becomes. I'm especially pleased you've mentioned Apostoli. I don't think I've ever seen ranked as high as #12 at MW before. According to my notes, Fred was 57-7-1 in fights contested at & around MW, only 4 of those defeats were around his prime years, all to top fighters - an MD to Ken Overlin in just his 22nd fight (so, around, rather than in his prime years), Young Corbett II (avenged), Cerfino Garcia & Tony Zale. He beat Freddie Steele, Young Corbett II, Georgie Abrams, Marcel Thil, Lou Broulliard, Paul Pirrone, Babe Risko, Solly Krieger x 2, Swede Bergland, Glenn Lee x 3 & Frankie Britt. That's a fine, fine record.
Thanks Vic. Tbh, I thought I had Jake lower in my MW list than most. His win resume - SRR, Holman Williams, Bert Lytell, Tiberio Mitri, Robert Vilemain, Laurent Dauthille, Fritzie Zivic x 3, Jose Basora x 2, Tony Janiro, etc. - arguably warrants a higher spot than the #16 I've assigned to him. The reason I don't rank him any higher is -1) imo, there's an * over some of his wins, e.g. Williams was past prime & the crowd boo'd the decision, the Lytell & Vilemain wins were SDs that read like they could have gone the other way; and 2) He also lost to quite a few of those best wins too. All things considered, he's a lock for the top 20 all time @ MW, imo.
Yes I agree with your reasoning about him being at the lower end of the top 20. He didn’t quite have the the punching power to go with his relentless pressure game that would have catapulted him up further, but on his day he was a fearsome competitor.
A fine fighter with some excellent wins at MW, but he doesn't make my top 20. I haven't ordered MWs after my top 20, but I'd have Ken Overlin & possibly a few others over him too. He was 2-2 vs my #20, Dick Tiger, and by my eye aside from those fights Tiger was more impressive, so I'm comfortable with him outside my 20. He has some fine wins, but he lost a fair few to fighters who weren't close to being great, too.
Hi Buddy. With you regards Giardello, good craftsmen, solid boxing credential's, if he carried a heavier punch maybe could have been seen in a more favourable light , that said lots of his losses were to very good boxers : Green, Tiger, Benton, Hank, Webb, Giambra, Graham, Castellani, etc, but yes he just falls short of a top 20 ranking for me. stay safe amigo.
Hi Mike, I completely agree Giardello both beat & lost to some very good fighters. 2 x losses to Charley Cotton (admittedly twice avenged) & 149lbs Ralph Dupas, for exampe, hurt his standings in my eyes. As always, criteria to rankings are key. If my sole criteria was the quality & depth of names at MW on the win resume only, I'd rank Giardello comfortably above my #14 Fitzsimmons & #13 GGG, and maybe even above my #8 Steele and possibly my #5 Hopkins. I value consistency of dominance over the field in a fighters prime highly, though, so I can't see Giardello in my top 20. He'd make my top 30 & he may, or may not, squeeze in my top 25, if I ever stretch my MW rankings that far.
I dont think the talent pool was very deep when Fitz beat Dempsey,for that reason I would not include him. I think Zale would make my top 20.
Fair enough. It is difficult appraising Fitzsimmons at the weight. He went around 29-2-8 at and around MW. Both his losses were to Jim Hall, who he also beat 3 times. NP Jack Dempsey was considered the GOAT of all time at MW and p4p 1 when they fought, Fitzsimmons dominated him in a non competitive bout. Crendon, McCarthy and Upham look decent supplementary wins to me. Zale is another guy I found tough to rank. He is 59-17-1 at and around the weight and lost to some uninspiring opposition as a fairly experienced fighter before post the age of 25 going on an excellent run. All in all, he's just outside my 20.
The middleweight limit during Dempsey's reign was 154lbs Fitz raised it to158lbs. How many middle champs had there been before Dempsey?
NP Jack Dempsey was the 1st to my knowledge, so point taken on that limiting the value of him being the GOAT MW up until that point.
Blimey ! Fred Apostoli must have been quite a Fighter. Dick Tiger at 20 ? Either you are an absolute expert or you're having us all on.
Jeez ! Your Grandad told you about Minter ? I feel old now I watched most of Alan's career on TV. @mcvey will have seen him up close a fair bit I reckon. Upright. Southpaw. Hard as nails but questionable temperament. It didn't take much to get Alan into a war, just tag him and he'll come blazing and wide open. All Time Great ? No chance. A member of an a golden age of British Fighters in the '70's for sure. PS. Golovkin at 16 ? He's top 5. GGG v Alan Minter would be a horror movie.
