Assume EVERY heavyweight retired close to their peak...

Louis
Marciano
Ali
Dempsey
Frazier
Foreman
Jeffries/Schmeling
Johnson/Baer
Walcott/Tyson
Charles/Lewis

 

Marciano would of had to retire before he won the title!

My picks with the number in brackets IMO their actual place all time in the division

10 Tunney (21)
9 Johnson (4)
8 Ali (1)
7 Marciano (7)
6 Holmes (5)
5 Louis (2)
4 Liston (13)
3 Tyson (11)
2 Foreman (3)
1 Jeffries (9)

 

I agree with this. (He would have retired if Carmine Vingo had died.) After which match would you have had Marciano retiring; the Rex Layne bout (which Charlie Goldman called his perfect fight), or after Kid Mathews? (I think the double hook kayo against Mathews was the peak performance moment of Rocky's entire career.)

I don't have the mental energy to compile such a list myself (at least not now), but I have to hand it to you, this was a real well thought out and intriguing post.

I'm curious to know precisely when you would have some of these heavyweights retire. For example, Louis always said his peak performance was against Max Baer, but for my money, his tactical masterpiece was the Godoy rematch. (Joe forces a stoppage in a contest where all his steps are backwards!)

 

He acually did retire in his peak so I rated him accordingly

 

Nice idea for a thread. Very Creative.

Now some fighters its difficult to establish how incomplete thier careers would be but here goes:

1. Louis
2. Holmes
3. Tyson
4. Marciano
5. Dempsey
6. Ali
7. Frazier
8. Johnson
9. Tunney
10. Liston

The most difficult thing about this list is that in order for rankings to be taken into account wins need to be excluded and consequently scenario's change. Ali doesnt lose to Frazier and Frazier's signature win is gone. My guess is the best way to do this kind of list is to rate careers up until thier absolute physical peak.

 

So it's your estimation that the version of Marciano who kayoed Archie Moore would have prevailed over any previous version of Rocky (perhaps based on his increased experience)?

 

1. Foreman
2. Liston
3. Ali
4. Frazier
5. Holmes
6. Lewis
7. Tyson
8. Marciano
9. Dempsey
10. Louis

Let the hatin' begin!

 

It would be helpful to see when each fighter retires, is Lewis's retirement before the first McCall fight?

 

Ok.

1. Foreman

When would one say his peak was? The first Frazier fight (he never looked the same after that bout)? Well, before that the only name on his record was an old George Chuvalo. In terms of resume, he'd be on about an equal level with James "Buster" Douglas sans losses.

2. Liston

Presuming we mean about the first Patterson bout (before his inactivity became severe), I can definetly see a case here. Liston won almost all his big fights before getting to the top.

3. Ali

If Ali had retired in 1967, I don't think he'd be rated that highly. His only big wins at that point (against Liston and Patterson) had major question marks about them. Take away his 1970s wins and Ali's record is surprisingly weak, however strong the performances may have been

4. Frazier

If Frazier retired in 1971 (as he nearly did due to an operation for hypertension), there would certainly be a big case for him. Aside from the Bonavena fights, he'd looked practically invincible, and had decisively won against Ali (I had it 10-5). Frazier arguably built up his entire resume of worth before the FOTC.

5. Holmes

I don't know; I think some of Holmes's post prime fights (the Spinks wins, his later title defenses, the Mercer wins, the Holyfield performance) just add to his resume so much.

6. Lewis

It depends on when one points to as his prime. I would say his best performance ever was against Holyfield in the first fight (where he won nearly every round). But he had a lot of big wins after that. The main way to bump Lewis up to the top 2, in my opinion, would be if Tyson and Bowe weren't such chickens. Their lack of testicles seriously hurts Lewis's record.

7. Tyson

Well, since it's apparently a crime to pay attention to any non-prime Tyson performances, I suppose wherever you rate Tyson wouldn't change... If you're a Tyson nuthugger. Personally, I think Tyson's record in his prime was nothing special by ATG standards.

8. Marciano

I think Marciano's best performances were against Ezzard Charles, where he peaked as a swarmer. But the Archie Moore fight embelishes his record a lot. Hmm... :think

10. Louis

CRIMINAL. Although it is true that Louis had a lot of important wins after his prime (I'd say it was in the second Buddy Baer fight) he had an extremely impressive resume before he even fought for the title.

 

The actual premise to the thread is too confusing when you really examine what it entails ....

It's okay saying Frazier retires after beating Ali in 1971 but if we say Ali's peak was 1967 then he wouldn't be around in '71 to lose to Frazier ..... likewise, Liston would have retired before losing to Ali so we cannot credit Ali with that win. Rocky Marciano wouldn't have wins over Joe Louis OR Ezzard Charles, for starters.
I suppose Tyson retires after beating Spinks, but then Spinks would have retired as a light-heavy in 1985 and we cannot count his wins over Larry Holmes, who would have retired back in 1982 !

 

I kinda felt the same way...

My guess is that the idea is to rate title runs and reigns.

A better way to phrase it would be who had the best reign if:

1. Ali never returns from exile
2. Liston after Patterson II
3. Tyson after Spinks
4. Foreman After Ali - I included the loss because considering Foreman's momentum he was still at his peak, he just lost tot he better man
5. Frazier after FOTC
6. etc.....

 

I think he looked strong for that fight, He looked in better shape for Walcott1 but Rocky still had around 4-5 fights left or another 2-3 years left so more or less he was Prime IMO

 

I think he was strong for the Moore fight as he was for Walcott and I think he still had about 4-5 fights left in him or 2 -3 years but with his style they get old overnight