At their prime who would win in a fight between Mike Tyson and Rocky Marciano?

Joshua's best performances have been in the 240s there is no reason at all to think he is naturally 220 or would fight better at a lower weight

 

Jarell Miller best performances are at 290 because he chooses to weigh that weight kid. That doesn't mean that is his natural weight. Joshua chooses to PED up to gain weight. If you can't understand that adding tons of weight will always effect your stamina then you know little about boxing. That is why fighters back in the 70's tired to come into the ring in shape. You will see a guy like Al Jones who was 6'6 always come in the ring at 230. As I stated before Foreman was listed at 6'3 1/2 230 as a 19 year older. Are you telling me he couldn't add 10 pounds and come into the ring at 240? But Foreman lost weight and got down to 212 for one bout before he eventually got back up to 231. Ali when he was 28 years old was 6'2 1/2 220 or slightly less. You don't believe he couldn't just add the weight as well?

Joshua is a natural 220 pound fighter or maybe even less who chooses to bulk on steroids for the muscles and the attention he thinks it gets him. It effects his stamina and that is why he tires easily.

 

Joshua has a ripped physique though while Miller looks pretty flabby

 

Before Joshua won gold he was regularly listed at 6'5". Joshua is just barely taller than Wlad, who is 6'4.5", but often in his matches was billed at 6'6".
http://thaboxingvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Joshua_Klitschko.jpeg

Wlad's Olympic height was 195cm, which is over 6'4", but under 6'5"
https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/kl/wladimir-klitschko-1.html

"In the gym,

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is ‘Big Josh’ — understandable at 6ft 5in and nearly 18st — to avoid any confusion."
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/ot...can-t-be-calling-me-little-josh-a3669056.html

 

Joshua has been tested 10 times for PED's in the last 4 months ,each time he was negative.

 

OK you may be right about Joshua man.
But Wlad is only 6' 4.5"? I think you meant to type "under" 6.5"...But are you sure?

The oldsters names could have came in heavier.
It is an open question under the rules of today IF Joshua would be as good smaller-I doubt it, since endurance is not enough of a priority.

But at his height, he may or may not be more "natural" at only 220...
Which anyway is an inexact concept...Natural if he did what kind of say heavy manual labor eating heartily?

His muscle weight by itself is within what some can achieve naturally.
Assuming a big bone structure & enough training.
And if he gases fairly easily, that is a sign that he does not do enough cardio to significantly deplete his bulk building capacity.
Unless he gained muscle very fast when already strong, with no direct evidence of use, there is not even decent circumstantial evidence he is a drug cheat.

That he could be does not show it to be likely or fair to conclude that he is.

 

Among my people it is a compliment.

Don't culturesplain.

 

Being legitimately 6'4.5" is actually a great height for boxing, since Wlad in my opinion was less clumsy and more versatile than his brother Vitali, who was legitimately 6'6" and had a very hard time punching down at Byrd, who was 6'0" while Wlad had no trouble at all. But, in fairness to Wlad and Joshua its the promoters and trainers that make them exaggerate their height for promotional purposes. They do the exact same thing in basketball, Michael Jordan was listed at 6'6" for years, but was also legitimately 6'4.5", but like Wlad would often wear lifts to appear 6'6". Ridd**k Bowe and Tony Tucker were also 6'4.5, but were listed at 6'5" as pros and Lennox, who was always 6'4" as an amateur went to being listed at 6'4.5 as a pro and eventually even 6'5".

Even Foreman after Frazier's death said he liked Frazier alot, but laughed at Frazier being listed at 5'11" or 6'0" and said Frazier was barely 5'9" on his best day, which makes sense considering how much 6'4" Bugner towered over Frazier.

Floyd was listed at 5'4" in the amateurs and when I met Floyd over 10 years ago I was surprised at how short he was, but after the Oscar fight he started wearing lifts.

Based on his performances as pro I think Joshua would be best between 230 and 240. By that I mean for smaller and more mobile opponent Joshua could come in closer to 230 while against taller and less mobile heavyweights he could come in closer to 240. I think at around 235 Joshua would've had Povetkin knocked out in half the time, since with less weight he would've been able to time Povetkin easier.

Also, Joshua's biggest weakness to me is his wasteful movements in the ring. He isn't as efficient as a seasoned pro yet, but McCracken is working on it, since he made Joshua adjust in the Takam, Parker, and Povetkin fights when Joshua was wasting too many punches. A guy Johsua's size doesn't need to take that many steps in the ring, since with his arm length and height he should always be able to reach his opponent in no more than two steps. When Joshua stopped moving as much and was patient he was able to start easily timing both Takam and Povetkin for punishing shots and was able to completely put Parker on the defensive.

 

Riddick Bowe was listed at 6'4 1/2 and that is the height he say he is. Boxing sites just like him at 6'5. Lennox Lewis has stated he is 6'4 3/4 and is same height has Charles Barkley who claims to be the same thing. Wlad has stated he is 6'5 so unless you have proof that he isn't I will say he is 6'5. Here is a photo of the measured 6'3 as a Olympian Foreman next to Bowe http://static4.imagecollect.com/preview/560/f7b02833c43806e

Give me a link with Foreman stating Frazier was 5'9. Frazier was always listed at 5'11 or so at his peak. Athletes back then period lied less about their height than athletes now days.

Joshua if he had to fight world class elite heavyweights who came into the ring in shape he would have to be lightly or he would always lost. He can get by with this now days because most fighters are either one PED's or out of shape. But Joshua's natural weight would be less than 230. Which is why he gasses out so quickly. It isn't like Joshua throws tons of punches either. But all of that extra steroid muscle tires him out.

 

Byrd is listed as 6 '2"

 

Joshua has never tested positive for PED's ,and he has been tested countless times.

 

It's complicated. The short of it is that race played a huge role in Marciano acquiring his superhuman status in the first place. In the 15 years after he retires, black American athletes take over the heavyweight division, including a surly ex-convict thug and a flamboyant black Muslim racist draft-dodger (a whole lot of other stuff happens too--blacks become more dominant in other major sports, the civil rights movement/black power phase/urban riots/etc.--but let's put that to the side for now). So certain white American boxing fans want a hero, and Marciano's the perfect candidate. So they immortalize him. Hyperbole abounds. He goes from being damn fortunate to make it through his career unbeaten to being damn near unbeatable. He has superhuman stamina and work rate, only made possible by his superhuman workouts. He throws murderous punches non-stop from bell to bell. Even his opponents bask in the penumbra of his greatness--they transform from aging and undersized men in an unimpressive era, to ATGs who likely would have beaten all but the greatest of the ATGs the nights they shared the ring with Rocky. The fact that he had only a handful of title defenses and 30+ wins over club fighters and b-fighters fades from memory. They imagine that he would have beaten more skilled, more physically gifted black champions like Ali and later Holmes and Tyson because of his superior "intangibles" and toughness. Race plays a huge role in all of this, though much of it was probably on a subconscious level. This gets enshrined in boxing books and passed down to their kids, nephews, and grandkids.

Anyway, that all happened a long time ago. Then you guys come around and discover boxing history decades later. You eat up all the classic boxing hyperbole and folklore uncritically, including with respect to Marciano. Because these men are "Greats", you accept as an article of faith that they would have risen to the top of the heavyweight division in any era, even against the bigger, faster, more athletic fighters of more recent years.

But most reasonable fans now disagree with you. We have ready access to his fight footage now and more details about his career. And we've seen a half century of 6'2+/215+lb heavyweights who look more skilled and talented than him (and even larger juggernauts who make those guys look small) ruling the division. So we don't take him as seriously as the guys who came before us did. Some of us even pick mere mortals from later eras to beat him. The disconnect between his legendary status and the dismissive way that some knowledgable boxing fans treat him troubles you. No other consensus top 10 heavyweight ATG receives this kind of treatment. You really want to show these people that they have it all wrong. So you squint at the footage until you start to see things that the rest of the world has been missing. He's not slow, he's actually fast. He doesn't throw wild punches--he throws "elite haymakers." He's not reckless defensively--he's extremely skilled and his bob&weave would be unsolvable for all but the greatest of super-heavyweights. He's even bigger, stronger, and more powerful than people realize. Etcetera. So it's not about guys like you having any kind of racial motives, but rather the disconnect between his immortal status and what we know about his career and see on film. Which is definitely related to race, imo.

And for the record, you're a special case in that you hero worship and give this revisionist treatment to tons of old-school heavyweights of all races, including guys whose stars are a lot dimmer than Marciano's. Some of these other guys only seem to gravitate toward the top-tier ATGs.

Anyway...just my take.

 

Wlad's Olympic listing 6'4.5"
https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/kl/wladimir-klitschko-1.html

George Foreman on Frazier
"When that bell would ring if you were King Kong you better put your cup as close to your head because he was coming. There would be no backing down. Frazier was not a big man at all. Frazier was about 5-9 but he would make anyone run. Put up your dukes and cover up because he's coming. He never backed up from anyone."
https://deadspin.com/5858061/george-foreman-says-frazier-and-ali-genuinely-loved-each-other

If Joshua fought in the old days and had to go 15 rounds he certainly would fight between 220-230, but his muscled up frame sales tickets just like Tyson's muscled up frame sold tickets, so I can see why Joshua's reluctant to drop 10-15 lbs.

 

Chris Bryd as an amateur was always listed at 185cm or just under 6'1".
https://www.sports-reference.com/olympics/athletes/by/chris-byrd-1.html

 

Knockouts sell tickets. Also England is just so happy to have a so called heavyweight champion from their country. You think if AJ weighed 220 people in the UK wouldn't turn in? Fighters now are just in a poor shape. They do it because they know they can get by with it. The point I was making is AJ's natural weight is 220 but he chooses to weigh 240. Fighters like George Foreman was 6'3 1/2 230 as a 19 year older and lost weight. Ken Norton was around 6'3 and always came into the fight at around 220. Ali was 6'2 1/2 and always came into the ring in shape in his prime. Ron Lyle was 6'3 220 or less because these fighters took the sport seriosly and realized being extremely bulky would slow then down and tire them out.