At their prime who would win in a fight between Mike Tyson and Rocky Marciano?

I understand the rule is that you must be 193lbs to fight in the current heavyweight division, and Jones was exactly that.

You could probably get Marciano to 193 in his own era, without any significant tinkering.

 

It’s a fair point to bring up that his body probably breaks down sooner with his style. But seeing guys like James Tooney Byrd RJJ(although brief jump) or a shorter fighter like Tua (with less skill) have success I don’t see why Rocky wouldn’t. That being said prob fights at cruiser weight today and moves up for one or two title fights at HW. There is NO WAY to know if he retains his skills at a higher weight with modern training like Holyfield did. Even Holyfield lost some stamina (then again he would only have to train for 12 instead of 15). But I laugh at those that say they KNOW he wouldn’t at a higher weight. Who knows? No one truly does. Mike Tyson fighting in the 1950s doesn’t weigh 220 just as Rocky fighting HW today doesn’t weigh 185. A better question would be who wins at an equal weight? Both weighing 200-205 both fighters most likely keep all their best attributes. At that point I pick Marciano and that’s why I picked him to begin with. I don’t see Ali weighing 215 today either like Foreman and Holmes Weighing far more in the 90s and being successful at an advanced age. If you pick Tyson I don’t see a problem with that either he was a great fighter I don’t see how race is even a discussion in this thread it’s absurd and diminishes the accomplishments and argument for both fighters. (Last comment was not aimed at Seamus)

 

Toney had a large speed and skill advantage (and 5" of reach) over Marciano. More importantly, he and Byrd were not come forward brawlers who took 3 punches to land 1. They were quick and cagey defensive specialists. RJJ was only around for one fight against the perfect patsy. That was as contrived as they come. That being said, Roy again has an almost immeasurable speed advantage over Marciano, both in hand and foot. And again, Roy fought largely a defensive fight to bank rounds.

None were face forward powerpunchers who won by breaking down their opponents over time.

I certainly don't see Tua as less skilled than Marciano. Bigger and stronger and quicker and a harder hitter than Marciano, he also protected his chin better. And... with all that, he ran into the Ibeabuchi and Lewis type monsters that exploited his deficiencies.

Again, show me the slow undersized heavyweight powerpuncher who has made a dent in the division since 1980.

 

Tua wasn’t half the fighter Marciano was. He certainly wasn’t faster. Had slight bursts that maybe were slightly faster but in general wasn’t. He was far easier to hit then Marciano and wasn’t nearly as aggressive as he didn’t have the stamina for it. Marciano also wasn’t “slow” he wasn’t fast either. There has t been a fighter like Marciano or Frazier or Tyson in awhile. They are rare.

 

Swarmers in the heavyweight division were rare even back then. It isnt the most ideal style regardless of era at HW because its so taxing on the body. To be a volume puncher in and of itself requires nothing short of elite stamina and workrate. To be an effective volume puncher a fighter needs to have good defense, otherwise they become "mexican style" sluggers.

Even with good stamina and defense, a swarmer ends up having a broken down body due to all the endurance training and willingness to take a few shots to land one or get inside slipping shots. Theres a reason dempsey, frazier, rocky, and tyson had such short primes.

Theres a reason povetkin is the only active HW fighter you could call a "swarmer" ranked in the top 10. Despite having an excellent amateur career, devastating power, high ring iq, good stamina, a solid chin, etc, he still got manhandled by wladmir and koed by joshua. He never became the lineal chamion or even a paper belt holder despite being a pro for a decade last i checked. That says a lot.

So when i look at povetkins failure despite all his positive attributes and having peds and weighing 220+, i find if hilarious people think frazier or marciano could just show up as they were without adjusting to the modern HW standards and take down guys like joshua or parker or wilder without breaking a sweat. Its nonsense. They would need to bulk up without losing stamina and workrate and even then, itd be an uphill battle.

Now as for the thread, i have no idea why this is so many pages long. Its an interesting discussion on why marciano is so polarizing, but nobody gives an inch so whats the point?

Btw, I dont see the matchup ending any other way except Tyson TKO Round 3 or less. Tyson does literally everything better than rocky. Rockys "stamina" and "heart" wouldnt be a factor because he would be stopped either on his feet or on the floor. George chuvalos stamina didnt save him from being stopped by Frazier and Foreman, i dont see how this would be any different.

Tyson was a fast starter with superior ring iq, defense, sharp explosive punches, frightening accuracy, and he was a good finisher. The very millisecond he had Rocky hurt, hed be all over him. Neither guy knows how to fight backing up, Rocky would be right in front of tyson, is smaller, (relatively) easier to hit, tended to cut, and wouldnt hesitate to brawl if thats what it became. Do the math.

Outside of a punchers chance, Rocky does not ever defeat a prime Mike Tyson. Its a horrible matchup, but it'd be an exciting one. Like a more evolved T-Rex vs an Allosaurus.

 

So long funny man! We never got to know you, and we are better for it.

 

Tua was faster than Marciano.

 

I was generalizing.
No one here has said Marciano was not great, what we have said,[well the more rational among us,] is that he would be at a big disadvantage against the modern heavies and fighters who fought in his style but are 20/40lbs heavier ,faster and without his tendency to cut.
McGrain was spot on , you are inordinately sensitive to anything you perceive as criticism and phobically protective of Marciano and his reputation,it's as though you are the self appointed keeper of his shrine.
You make some excellent videos and posts which are extremely entertaining, and for that I, and I'm sure everyone else, is extremely grateful,but you often try to insert a narrative that is totally at odds with what we can see with our own eyes. My friendly advice , drop the crusading ,just relax , and enjoy yourself ,you make a significant contribution here,dont mar it with defensive lectures.

 

What annoys me most about these discussions is that we who think that Marciano's small size relative to later champions decreases his chances in h2h fantasy match-up are accused of only seeing size. That's quite hypocritical. I'd say that the Marciano backers in these match-ups are very, very concerned about size, but only up to about 187 lbs.

If someone would say that Golovkin, who's only 15-20 lbs lighter in the ring than Marciano was, would beat Rocky, I feel pretty certain that the ones who like Marciano's chances against Tyson, Bowe, Lewis etc would (quite angrily) ridicule that idea. Those 15-20 lbs size differential is very important in their eyes. But those that think the 30 lbs separating Rocky and Tyson, or the 50-60 that separates Rocky from Lewis and the Klits, means anything are obsessed with size and know nothing about the real qualities of a fighter.

For some reason size just stops mattering altogether over 187 lbs. It's not just decreasing marginal returns, the returns just cease altogether. Every single lbs up to that point is very important, though.

 

Not when your name is Rocky MotherFing Marciano!!! You can and will overcome all!!!!

 

It's not the 187 pounds that worries me the most. It's the 67" reach combined slow feet and bad balance.

 

Well, those things don't help, but if Tyson was 187 lbs instead of 217 lbs, I'd certainly give Rocky a better chance against him.

 

Solid point. In 99pct of cases I agree with you. BUT there are special fighters who defy the logic and history has proven it a lot. Recent history would be RJJ, Chris Byrd, James Tooney, Holyfield and imo soon to be Usyk. If I told you Mayweather would fight GGG weighing 20 less and whoop his ass you wouldn’t doubt it. But the points you made were absolutely correct and def pertain to a general rule. It’s just my opinion that if you have power, great technique, and/or a great chin you can hang at Different weights. If a fighter throws punches with enough force equivalent to being hit with armor piercing rounds it doesn’t matter that you weigh 20-40 more your chin can only take so much.

 

Jones had unbelievable reflexes and very good skills.Toney was a great fighter who lacked the dedication to exploit his talent, his defensive moves and ring smarts are such Marciano could only dream about them.Byrd was an evasive specialist who seldom got caught flush.Holyfield is a solid top ten all time heavyweight for me who proved he could battle with super heavies and prevail.Usyk looks as though he may well join this crew with his ring-craft, intelligent movement, and punch variety ,time will tell.Marciano did not have their natural talent imo.

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.