Probably the list I've found most challenging so far. This is my first draft, and I guess it will change a lot. I wasn't sure if I should do a top 25, or tackle a top 50, so I settled on 35 (since edited to 40). As you can see, it's not based upon achievements at Light Middle, although it's been taken into consideration. Rather, if any fighter (who could make 154lb), fancies wading into the fray, I want them to come and have a go, if they think they're hard enough. So the list naturally includes some smaller middles, some very good welters, and some welters who got big, late on. I've probably completely forgotten some people. And I've probably made massive mistakes with over-rating and under-rating, too. Educate me, please. Robinson Burley Walker Hearns Ketchel Fitzsimmons T Ryan Langford Basilio Norris Ray Leonard H Williams Griffith NP Jack Dempsey Benitez Graziano McCallum Duran Mayweather Papke J Jackson Armstrong Britton Kid Lewis Gavilan Napoles Wright Mosley Trinidad De La Hoya Benvenuti Nunn Mugabi Curry Palomino Cokes Whitaker H Graham Alvarez Vasquez
Thanks. Good shouts. 1) I always thought of Ketchel as generally being much bigger than 154lb. But I guess that's because the most famous video of him is fighting Johnson, where he looks a good strong 165lb+. Did he ever weigh in around that lighter weight? 2) Benvenuti was yet to leave Italy when he was weighing in below the MW limit, so I'm not knowledgeable enough about the opponents to know if he was a top fighter at that lower weight.
Again, as with Ketchel, I rate Fitz very highly. Yet within a year of arriving in America he was over 154lb. And again, I don't know enough about his early opponents to rate him as a LightMiddle.
Hmmm, okay... so it's not light-middleweights, just light middleweights! Hard to argue with Robinson as no. 1 on that basis. But if it was genuine light-middleweights, Hearns would have to be at the top.
Yeah. I'm a bit of a crazy boy, but that's just the way I see things. For example, I would have Tommy Burns around number 15 on my Light Heavyweight list, and Marciano as a top 5 Cruiser, although they are generally regarded as heavies.
Good call. He was 154Ibs or below when he fough M'Carty and Dempsey, I don't think he was yet at his best, but he was a force. Langford should probably be in too.
Carmen Basilio, at below 154 lbs, W/L his 2 fights against SRR. Basilio in reality was never more than a Junior MW, but had to fight bigger men like Fullmer & Pender for the MW title on the back end of his career. Fight #1 1957-09-23 : Carmen Basilio 153½ lbs beat Sugar Ray Robinson 160 lbs by SD in round 15 of 15 Location: Yankee Stadium, Bronx, New York, USA Referee: Al Berl 6-9 Judge: Ait Aadi 9-5 Judge: Bill Recht 8-6 Unofficial AP scorecard: 6-6 World Middleweight Championship (1st defense of 4th reign by Robinson) Photo #2, Photo #3, Photo #4 Fight #2 1958-03-25 : Carmen Basilio 153 lbs lost to Sugar Ray Robinson 159¾ lbs by SD in round 15 of 15 Location: Chicago Stadium, Chicago, Illinois, USA Referee: Frank Sikora 69-66 Judge: John Bray 64-71 Judge: Franklin Spike McAdams 64-72 Unofficial AP scorecard: 63-70 World Middleweight Championship (1st defense by Basilio)
Added Fitz, Langford, and Ketchel, too. on further investigation, they did enough at that weight. Papke and Benvenuti, also.
Yes, you're probably quite right on both counts, there. I can see why people may think that. However, to me, it would seem a bit odd to rate someone like Norris over someone like SRR, simply due to the achievements at a weight which didn't previously exist. So I prefer to see it as "almost" completely arbitrary and ridiculous. I guess it means that I'll always lose debates on these ATG lists, because I'll rarely be able to back up everything with facts and figures. Thanks for your contribution anyway
