ATG at 168: RJJ, Calzaghe, Ward?

I commented because you said Calzaghe had a weak resume and Ward and good resume.
Wake up dip****, Wards best win was Kessler who Calzaghe beat when undefeated.
How has Ward matched most of Calzaghes best wins?
Wards next best win is Froch who hasnt as good a resume as Mitchell or in title fights as Lacy.
Then Calzaghe has Eubank (far greater) and Woodhall, Reid etc who have arguable resumes to Froch.
Ward next big win is Bika and guess what, Calzaghe beat him previously also.
Then Calzaghe has other top 10 names.

How wrong can you be?

 

Eubank lost to Collins because he was boiling himself down to fight in a division he had outgrown. His punch output against Collins II was around 20-30 punches per round. Your boy Calzaghe was still throwing up to 80+ punches per round when he was fighting Kessler so its not even comparable.

Thompson was a B level fighter at best. The reason Eubank lost the second fight was because he was constantly getting tagged with the same right hand leads that Thompson was landing on him during their first fight.

?????
Your prime is determined by the quality of your reflexes, not who you beat. Ali was past prime, post exile, and beat atg's like Frazier and Foreman.

Flawed reasoning.
Whether a fighter is green, prime, past prime or shot has to be taken into account when evaluating a win. Otherwise you could say that Berbicks win over Ali was great, because of Ali's resume.

A win over a prime Kessler>>>>>>>>>win over over-the-hill Eubank

 

Calzaghe.

Jones Jr was a paper champion at every weight he fought at.

 

Nobody is even talking about Glen Johnson and nobody is claiming it is an amazing win for Froch either

Reid was a journeyman

He looked fine against Froch and Ward. No fighter looks great during every one of their fights.

You do know that Dirrell is a very talented fighter, comparable to prime Nunn in terms of athletic potential?

You know Glen Johnson was robbed during his first fight against Dawson
Should of won all three of the Woods fights
Should of got a draw against Cloud
Has a win over Jones(ATG)

Either way I had Froch clearly winning that fight.

Both Pascal and Dirrell are good wins for Froch. Only time will tell how good they really are.

The lhw division is only 7 lbs from the smw division. If you are good in one division you dont become crap because you moved up 7 lbs.

There were constant reports being leaked from his camp about the hand injury.

His hand problems are exaggerated.
He slapped due to poor technique, not to preserve his hands.

I never said anything about Ward's win over Abraham, which was a B- level win, like most of Calzaghes title defenses.

Dirrell's future is still to be decided and as I said before he is a gifted fighter, better than anyone Calzaghe beat at smw.

Pascal's still has time to add to his legacy. You don't become a different fighter because you move up 7 lbs.

Source?

 

Most fighters are paper champions

 

He had to be undressed by his team and lowered into a warm bath because he took such a bad beating against Benn. He would state in his autobiography that he was pissing blood weeks after that fight.
It's the reason he was reluctant to fight Benn again, even when Benn was his mando for his smw wbo belt.

Wrong again.
He stated in his book that he needed time to recover from the damage he took during that fight.

You completely missed the point. He had clearly slipped a step because before Watson II he would of evaded most of those types of punches.

He got a lot of gift decisions. The Schommer fight was a terrible robbery - as bad as Toney-Tiberi

I had him beating Malinga by about one point and I scored the Roccigaiani fight a draw

I dont know what fights you are talking about.

When you never beat anyone thats any good and you regularly lose to journeyman then you are a journeyman yourself.

Lacy was an overhyped journeyman. who did he beat worth mentioning before Calzaghe? Reid? Sheika? Vanderpool?
The fact is he beat nobody worth mentioning and afterwards he would lose to washed up Taylor and get stopped by shot Jones.
That is the same Jones that got koed in 50 seconds against C level Danny Green

 

A win over prime Froch >>>>>>> win over washed up Eubank

You are better rating fighters on their fighting ability, not on their accomplishments. Some top fighters don't get the breaks that others get.
Some journeyman rack up lots of title defenses


Reid picked up a belt then lost it to a 42 year old binman - that's his major accomplishment at smw.
Pascal, Dirrell >>>>>Reid

Lacy was a overhyped journeyman. Never beat anyone that was any good and lost to washed up fighters like Jones and Taylor
Froch>>>>>>>>>Lacy

During which parts of those fights were his timing off?

????????????
10 month lay off after Benn I
10 month lay offf after Watson I

Went life and death with journeyman like Thornton and Malinga. In fact he basically struggled with most of his opponents, no matter how abysmal they were, post Watson II

One minute you are beating Benn and Watsonx2 the next you are needing gift decisions to get past binmen.

Eubank had slipped a number of steps

Source?

When Dirrell starts getting beat up by 42 year old binmen and Branco types than get back to me. As it is he is a gifted fighter who career is still in its formative stages.

??????????
No one said that. I had him losing both of the Tarver fights and Im told his losses to Ottke and Sosa are fair

The fact that Ottke needed a corrupt ref and corrupt judges to beat a part time pornstar should tell you how good Ottke was.

Can't comment on that loss, haven't seen the fight.

Johnson wasn't any good at smw but things really came together for him at lhw. He is still a top fighter, but he has no business boiling himself down to smw at this stage of his career, which is why I dont rate Froch's win over him as anything speical.

Johnson has no business fighting at smw at this stage of his career. He is better off at lhw.

Picking up belts doesnt mean much these days because there are now around 5 in each division. Who you beat to pick up the belt must be taken into account as well. Nardiello was a b- level fighter. He was basically a journeyman that Reid beat to pick up the wbc strap.

If that is a major accomplishment to you then lol

Where did I say that? You don't become a completely diffrerent fighter because you put on 7lbs.

They havent lost to journeyman either. What part of that do you not understand? Both of them would of beat Nardiello and neither of them would of lost to a 42 year old binman.

You claim Kessler had blurred vision yet he was passing the physical examinations.

When your hand problems disappear because your promoter says to you pull out of this fight and you career is finished, then your hand problems are exagerrated.

Pascal has a great win over Dawson
Hopkins>>>>>>>>> Sugar boy Malinga, Silvio Branco

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A29127602

 

Well that's ok then. As long as other fighters take a lot of internel damage than it should be no problem for Eubank

Eubank made an offer to Jones in 1996. Jones turned him down stating that now he has lost to Collins twice he is no good to me.

What has that got to do with the amount of time Eubank needed to recover
from Watson II?

Terrible example. Froch hasn't been in the kind of wars that Eubank had with Watson and Benn I.

Nope
He has a win over a near prime Jones(atg)
Has a win over Tarver (personally I thought he lost that fight)
Should have a win over prime future hofer Dawson

Lacys best wins: Reid, Sheika and Vanderpol
losses: Taylor, Jones, Calzaghe

His best wins are against journeymen and he has two losses to guys who were basically a step above journeyman level.

Lacy=journeyman.

Lebedev could of ended Jones when ever he felt like it. Check out that brutal ko

Hiopkins was not hurt in their fight and I had him winning a comfortable ud decision.

 

Flawed logic.
The last thing boxing needed was another sanctioning body in the late 80's, especially after the amount of damage the existing three had already done, since arriving on the scene during the late 60's

That was the main reason why no one wanted to accept the wbo belts . Their belts were worthless because the organisation was seen as worthless.

Networks like HBO and Showtime refused to recognise them.
Top Promoters like King and the Goosens refused to recognise them
Ring Magazine refused to recognise them and when it created the concept of a unified champion it ignored the wbo belt.
Because of the above top American fighters also chose to ignore them as well. That is why wbo belts became known as euro belts.

Defending a wbo belt before 2005 was equivalent to defending the IBO belt

 

When haven't I?

Do you think Woodhall would beat any of the S6 guys? Even Abraham?

And to say Abraham couldn't compete at smw is wrong. He was in a tournament with the top fighters(not all) of the division. He was exposed as undersized, but was still a dangerous opponent.

How would Woodhall have done vs the same? How would any of Calzaghe's opponents 97-06 have done? I'm thinking they ALL would have lost.

The whole problem with judging guys by what they accomplished is that you have to qualify it by considering who they did it against.

Mitchell wasn't a bad fighter, but aside from Liles, what's there?
Siaca??

How would Mitchell do in today's SMW division?

Reid isn't worse than Green. Green shouldn't have been in the tournament. He had some decent wins. But if Brinkley is among his notable wins...............

Not really, my friend. It has to be considered who it was done against. Who once gave a future or past champ trouble doesn't really hold water. Nor does A beating B who once beat C and challenged D. It really says nothing about A.

Lacy of '06 would have competed in the S6, but I don't think he would have gotten into the finals.

Roy Jones was shot. Just watch his earlier fights. He was a shell of himself. I don't get this. He got KO'd by Danny Green man. He should have retired 8 years ago. Instead he has hung around to be fodder, a professional opponent and a name on people's resume who would never have had a chance when it would have mattered. (and I'm not even talking Calzaghe here......Green, glen Johnson, Lebedev?)

So, I would say Froch would have beaten him, as has any other good fighter in the last 7 or 8 years, but not dominated him like Calzaghe did.

Jones was shot. Calzaghe even said so.

We're talking about his run until unification with Lacy. I see none of the above losing to any of those guys. Taylor despite not accomplishing much at SMW, was still a good fighter. Who do you think he loses to in that group?

I do think both Kessler(but not now) and Ward beat that particular Eubank. The comparison with Bute is odd, Bute is at the top of his game now. Eubank obviously was not. It's not just about the age.

Defeats against who though? Those 3 S6 guys AA lost to are better fighters than any of the guys from 97-06. So it needs to be qualified. Some of those guys would have given AA trouble from what I can see, but none are as good as Dirrell, Froch or Ward. Nor have the speed, workrate or defense to give AA the problems that these guys did.

 

If you apply the same reasoning, that lets you conclude Eubank was past his prime, to Kessler, you'd realize that he was also past his prime when he faced Ward.
Logical consistency is what I look for in arguments, since you guys are probably all more experienced than me on the topic of boxing.