ATG FEATHERWEIGHT TOURNIE: FIGHT 1, ROUND 1 - WILLIE PEP UD15 SUGAR RAMOS

My vote goes to Pep. I really didn't have to think about it twice. For all the reasons you just enumerated of Pep's strengths and almost magical defensive abilities McGrain,...and that takes nothing at all from Sugar Ramos...a very fine fighter that verges on being forgotten, were it not for a fine classic forum like this one.
Bottom line is that there would be precious little that Ramos could have shown Pep that Willie hadn't already seen before and triumphed over. Pep's unteachable gifts...much like Nicolino Locche's in later years, would have been too much for Ramos...it would have been things that Sugar couldn't have possibly prepared for...and if he had very much success at all, it wouldn't have been enough, as his reach would have exceeded his grasp. Pep's schtick was magic...and how do you deal with that?
Pep would have notched a rather one sided decision over 15...not that he wouldn't have received any punishment at all from Ramos...it just wouldn't have been enough, and I'm sure that Pep would have sparkled vs the Cuban...trotting out his finest dazzling footwork, frustrating shifts in angles, and I'm sure that Pep would have had no trouble worth speaking of in landing what he threw on Ramos.
Willie Pep by a unanimous 15 round decision....easily.

 

Ramos was a beautiful fighter, but just don't see him doing anything against the extraordinary boxing of Pep. Pep on a 15 round decision.

 

I have to agree, great post RC. Ramos was refined and renowned, but Pep was truly bebop and, as McGrain stated, a maverick with almost aethereal qualities. I have no question Pep would win here, though Ramos would not be ashamed. That bout with Robertson, however, just seals the deal for me.

 

I missed the previous editions of this but I can't pick any FW over pep.

He was glorious in his pomp.

Pep is one of the best defensive wizards in history and actually cracks my all time top 10 list P4P list.

Ramos is outside of my top 10 featherweight which seems insane but the true can be said about lots of ATG level featherweight fighters as its a stacked division.

Ramos was a crafty counter puncher, great timing and footwork and he had very good power.

Pep was out of this world. I don't even think its possible to out box someone with the style of Pep. I mean Angott beat him in a close fight, but that's the same kind of loss many heavyweights suffered against Ruiz, where you can't really hold it against them.

Then again, if you're going to pick a great FW to stimmy, stifle and squash anyone, a Cuban such as Ramos would be just that man.

But then again on the other hand Ramos is a lot smaller than Angott so can't bully Pep the way the clutch did.

I'm going convincingly with Pep to dance his way to a victory from range, but it's not as obvious as I first considered.


Pep

 

I love Ultiminio but I can’t see a case for him here. Pep wins by a lopsided UD, maybe Ramos can win a few rounds but won’t get close.

 

**** it, I'm going to try to make a case for Ramos to spring a huge upset.

Against Peps outstanding energy, unique shifty inventiveness and high volume, waspish, peppering output sustained over 15, it might be big against Ramos that he could sometimes fade late due to being weakened from weight-cutting and also that he had mixed defensive reflexes and a bit of a disregard for taking punches.

Outside of that, though, I'd say he has, at his very best, a lot of the potential tools required to give Pep a very torrid fight. Fast hands, big power, a wide arsenal of slick & varied punches, excellent timing, very good baiting skills/sneaky punching. He had very good Napoles-like footwork too in terms of keeping moving opponents in range with constant little shifts and was great at cutting off the ring. Physically monstrous too at the weight. Obviously tracking down an improvising Hermes-esque magician is harder than preventing even a swift, excellent mover like Seki from escaping, which Ramos did, but it's a decent start. And having timed, lashing straight punches in your arsenal helps.

I struggle to see how the likes of Terranova, Bartolo, Wright etc - good though they were - were better than him, and while they never beat Pep and rarely threatened to do so (maybe outside of Bartolo in the first fight) he didn't always exactly sweep every round against world level fighters like them, generally in control and often dominant as he was. Only a small sample of course from his huge list of defeated rated opponents and the fact that he fought so often against good fighters makes losing rounds inevitable and churlish to criticize I suppose. His record speaks for itself and he looks marvellous on film even outside of his prime and was so ridiculously experienced that he might have seen it all. It just isn't a stretch in my mind from him losing a handful of rounds vs good fighters to being run very hard and having to use all of his ingenuity, energy and nous to get by a very talented, crafty physical beast who arguably has quicker hands.

Ramos tended to struggle more when he couldn't run opponents over imo and they took him into deep water and drove him back. It's hard to know how his potential championship rounds stamina consistently was during his run to the title and even against Moore , Seki etc because he either took opponents out or wasn't fighting over the championship distance. I think I read that he'd dropped a massive amount of weight for the Robertson fight and if so, it showed and makes the circumstances somewhat mitigating. Making the weight by the time of the Saldivar fight was supposedly killing him and he was up against a strong, ruthless, anvil-handed atg stamina machine giving his greatest performance. I try not to judge him too harshly by that fight. If Olivares can get a free pass for weight making problems after being ktfo by a Herrera, I'll give Ramos the benefit if the doubt; he'd never have beaten Saldivar regardless. It's whether or not the prime Ramos who beat Moore would have lagged if the fight had gone past the 10th, 12th round or whatever.

I dunno if I've convinced even meself, but there you go. It's a bit like that time when I voted for the Green Party rather than Labour when I knew that Ed Miliband was winning the seat regardless in a Labour stronghold and at least the Tory *******s weren't gonna get any joy. Ramos is the Green Party fella whose name I can't remember and Pep is a slightly inferior Ed Miliband who doesn't look like Beaker from the Muppets.

 

Have to go with the prevailing opinion and vote for Pep by way of a unanimous decision after comprehensively outboxing Ramos over 15 rounds. Pep's footwork would carry him out the way of Ramos' attack and Willie would pick him apart with counters. Ramos would be competitive and do some damage on the inside, possibly stunning Pep momentarily, but I think he would struggle to keep pace with Pep and would struggle to win rounds, costing him a decision in which the final scorecards would be more lopsided than the fight truly was.

 

Cheers Matt.

Can a good poster now be lovely jubbly and vote for Ramos so I don't look like no crazy lone sausage? Thanks.

Tin_Ribs xxx

 

Sensational prose by TR but i am going to say i think Pep would be half a step ahead most of the night and win a harder fought decision than some might envision. Lets say 9-6.

 

Robertson made Ramos look bad, but he was struggling with the weight by that point.

Still, this is cut and dry: Pep by decision.

 

Hard to come up with a scenario where Ramos gets the nod, as good as he was.