ATG FEATHERWEIGHT TOURNIE: SF 1 - HENRY ARMSTRONG UD15 WILLIE PEP

Man this is tough.

My default pick and the button I clicked straight away was Pep.

But then I'm expecting him to do what no one else ever did and keep Armstrong from getting inside.

I mean Lou Ambers was a great great fighter and as close as their fight was he didn't come close to stopping Armstrong getting inside.

Ross was a great great fighter and he didn't come close to stopping Armstrong from getting inside.

Is it reasonable to expect any FW from keeping Armstrong at distance? I don't know any more.

But then again no one apart from Saddler (after pep had been in a plane crash and was told he'd never walk again) ever got inside of Pep.

I'm torn here. I came confidently picking Pep, but the more I think about it, the more I think it's ridiculous expecting Pep to keep the fight at range for a full 15 rounds.

That is a ludicrous notion isn't it, at some point Armstrong will get him against the roped and slow him down and probably knock him out.

What a shock to me this is.

Changing my pick to Armstrong by ko. Happy to be on the wrong side of this debate though.

Wait a minute.

It's kind of like a higher skill version of Whitaker vs Chavez.

Pep is a bit better than Whitaker, Armstrong is a bit better than Chavez. Whitaker manage to keep that up all night, and actually if he can against an offensive machine like Chavez, then Pep can against an offensive machine like Armstrong.

I think.

I change my mind again, Pep UD

 

Pep,, Willie at his best was magnificent and I think he'd have Armstrong resetting constantly with his footwork and movement. He'd never come close to hurting Hank but he'd take a clear UD.

 

The problem with the Whitaker-Chavez analogy is that Chavez was past his peak and likely past his prime by the time they met in the ring, and fighting above his best weight. This assumes the best version of featherweight Arrmstrong vs the best version of featherweight Pep, so you don't have those mitigating circumstances attached to that match.

Now, the best version of featherweight Pep was obviously an other-worldy boxer, which obviously will help his cause against Armstrong. More importantly, a close examination of his record indicates that he was a harder puncher than his record suggests. He waxed Bartolo with one punch, dropped McAllister for the count with a single left to the body, turned out Charley Riley's lights with an uppercut, left Jock Leslie on the mat for the proverbial count of "100" according to reports, and scored a whole bunch of KDs in fights that went the distance. He managed to score 61 KO's in his career, the vast majority occurring before he lost the title. So, in spite of his reputation as a feather-fist, he could hit when he wanted/needed to.

And he'd definitely need to set down and punch against Armstrong. Armstrong was capable of closing distance on just about anyone that he faced, no matter how well they moved. So, Pep is getting tracked down at some point, and he's gonna have to hit hard enough to do some damage and give him the chance to find an exit route, slide out of range and re-set.

But, can he do it consistently once the absolute best version of featherweight Armstrong gets into his groove (which is bound to happen)?

I don't think he can.

Armstrong may have looked unbalanced as he marauded, but he had a knack for weaving under the shot that his opponent was trying catch him with on the way in, allowing him to get into his desired range. As fast and accurate as Pep is, I think Armstrong manages to gunge his timing around round five or so, makes him miss more and more, and starts getting more and more business done on the inside. Not everything connects at first, but enough it does to cause Pep to become a little ragged, and a little more inclined to hold rather than fight. Armstrong, of course, will have none of that and even though I could see him getting cut up a little, eventually he busts Pep in return and belabors him down the stretch to earn a close but clear decision on the cards.

Armstrong UD.

 

I voted Armstrong, just because I can't imagine anyone, Pep or anybody, holding THAT guy off for that long.

 

I really don't know.
The roads to victory for each guy are pretty clear. Armstrong needs to get close and work while Pep need to keep control of the distance and turn Armstrong so he can land his shots with no payback. They are both very busy, each in his own way, so it will be a fast paced fight.
The variables, by my thinking:
- both guys are accustomed to fighting their fight and making the opponent fight it too. So I expect each guy will have periods that favor his style. Who can get the most out of his opportunity?
-the opposite of that, basically. Pep knows how to fight inside; he won't want to but he can and he will have to. Can he be effective enough? When Pep is at his range and moving, can Armstrong make him miss, keep from getting hit with combinations?
-can Armstrong hurt Pep? Specifically, can he hurt Pep to the body? That will be key to slowing him down and I think it will be necessary if Armstrong is to hurt him to the head.
-can Pep hurt Armstrong? I really don't think he can, not if by hurt you are thinking getting Armstrong wobbly or groggy. What I mean is, enough to make Armstrong think about it in close.
-who defines the movement? My first thought was this; Pep's chance of winning ties directly to how often he moves how he wants to as opposed to how often he moves how Armstrong makes him. That will be the difference as to whether Armstrong is chasing or pressuring Pep. And they are not the same thing.

I can see this fight getting rough with a lot of wrestling in close, low punches. It is going to be a close fight and go to the wire, unless Armstrong can hurt him to the body. Then he will pull away. I don't think it with any certainty at all, and I wouldn't bet on it, but I'm voting Armstrong.
This fight really intrigues me and I would love to watch it.

 

Really good post. Well said.

 

This is a lovely breakdown. I really like that question about who defines the movement and I think the outcome of the fight would probably hinge on that. My inclination is that Pep defines it early, and Armstrong does so late...It's just a matter of how long it takes for Hank to get started. Then again, Pep;s IQ might well allow him to adjust, and try a few raids of his own to keep Armstrong guessing.

I'm still picking Armstrong, but this is a tough, tough fight to call.

 

Fantastic guys, just fantastic. I like Armstrong for everything you two have stated. Incredible matchup.

 

I really don't know, I'll go with a draw. Or Pep wins 2 and loses 3 after getting broken down in a series. I mean if Saddler can catch up to Pep, I'd expect a more relentless faster Armstrong probably could. But maybe Pep could outbox him

It's a draw

It's not like he became prime several years later. He won the FW title and then went onto face the WW champion. Not because he was drained at FW but because he could as a natural 133lb guy. And 133lb guy isn't draining to make FW.

 

I like Armstrong big here. Pep's bag of tricks was seemingly endless, his rhythm breaking and universal head-movement combined with his walking foot-work means he should be able to dance circles round Armstrong. In practice, I don't think the fight would play out like that at all.

No, I reckon Armstrong crowds, pressures and breaks down Pep, who doesn't have the workrate to keep up with Armstrong IMO. Hank can certainly replicate the 'dirtiness' which Saddler used to get under Pep's skin, and Armstrong has all the bullishness to execute a similar plan.

But the biggest thing is that there's only so much room where Pep can stay in the centre of the ring, and he wasn't impossible to get on the ropes. Armstrong's strength and workrate are gonna pile up points whilst Pep has his back to the ropes.

Armstrong UD15

 

Was he thrashed or beat though? I haven't read the fight report, is there one? I'm pretty sure there's no footage of these losses. It does look like he was gradually improving at featherweight looking at the change of results. Especially Arizmendi results where he went

All the same I'd pick his peak performance, ie Sarron. Not that that Armstrong necessitates he beats Pep who was generally more dominant in a single weight class.

 

Pep would look to circle, clinch inside and turn Armstrong to avoid this. While beating Hank to the punch on the outside. He'd also feint and counter Armstrong a fair bit.