ATG FLYWEIGHT TOURNIE: THE FINAL - Jimmy Wilde beats Midget Wolgast by wide unanimous decisoin

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, May 2, 2020.


Who will be named Champion?

Poll closed May 5, 2020.
  1. Midget Wolgast

    22.2%
  2. Jimmy Wilde

    77.8%
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's the dream final, probably. Both men were rock hard, both men were geniuses and both men mined styles that were deemed to strange and difficult for mainstream production. Nobody boxes like Wilde. Nobody boxes like Wolgast. Here the similarities end.

    Wolgast is a defensive genius with a stabbing, brilliant offence. He feinted his opponent forwards and then moved off the center line, his reactions to any offensive foray a deft slip of the head, but his own offense was what differentiates him from other great defensive wizards. Wolgast, who couldn’t punch to save himself, was unequalled at firing off blows while on the move. I mean he might be the best ever, of anyone who has ever lived, at firing off punches in bunches while on the move. You'd expect that man to be boxing somewhere below bantamweight.

    His bread and butter was a shrill pop of a jab that he could land whatever angles his balletic movement inflicted, and as an improviser he was second to none. When the time came to scrap, he moved in on his man, head working like a cat about to strike, deploying a swarming body attack of dizzying variety. He was a jazz musician in a pair of boxing gloves, and domination was his art.

    This combination made him a disaster for a generation of flyweights. Willie Davies slumped to multiple defeats against him, their rivalry perhaps the greatest in flyweight history as Davies time and again pushed his opponent to the very brink but succeeded in winning only one of their seemingly endless stream of combats.

    Even the beginnings of his excellence are too long to tell but his 1927 win over Izzy Schwarz is as fine a place as any. Schwartz was an experienced ring veteran, only months away from his own victory over Willie Davies and a year from his victory in an NYSAC title fight, but he couldn’t do anything with Wolgast who, though still a teenager, clearly out-pointed him. Billy Kelly, Ernie Peters, Phil Tobias, Ruby Bradley, Johnny McCoy, Jackie Brown – the list of made men he befuddled starts here and just rolls on and on. In fact, no fighter in this tournament defeated more ranked contenders than Wolgast. That bears repeating – Wolgast defeated more ranked men than any other flyweight in history, which is the same as saying anyone.

    And yet he was never the champion (though he did lift a strap against Black Bill while still a teenager, an extraordinary feat). Can he reign as the ATG Tournie champion?
    This content is protected


    Jimmy Wilde, of course, carries the greatest offence in flyweight history. I've always said that what made Wilde truly great wasn't what he did at flyweight, but what he did above that weight and certainly it won't bother him one little bit that Wolgast comes in the heavier man. He can be seen on film exhibiting not just the power but the strength of a much, much bigger man.

    As for Wilde’s championship legacy at flyweight, tracing it can be difficult. For some it can be counted from 1914 when he lifted the European flyweight title against the even smaller Eugene Husson, a fight also billed for something called the “gnatweight title”. This claim is muddied by Wilde’s fellow Welshman Percy Jones, who held the IBU flyweight title at the same time; he then lost that title to Joe Symonds. The Symonds claim was in turn strengthened over Wilde’s because he was able to defeat the man who stopped Wilde in 1915, Tancy Lee. When the gnatweight title fell by the wayside the European title Wilde held remained just that in terms of lineage while the IBU title, held by Jones and Symonds, morphs into the flyweight title – meanwhile America recognized no meaningful flyweight champion, though a “paperweight” title did receive fleeting attention.

    This mess was born of a semi-recognized division which was as geographically moribund as any, ever. Within this division, Wilde’s early involvement in competition for such titles does speak to his elite status, but he cannot be named the best flyweight in the world until 1916, especially not in the light of his knockout loss to Lee in 1915. From 1916 to 1920 though, Wilde was the Don and the single most significant flyweight in history as he became the overseer of the division’s transition to legitimacy. His destruction of Sid Smith in eight rounds at the very end of 1915 was the true beginning of his evisceration of the poundage and when he later turned the same trick in just three his confirmation as prime was complete. In between he forced Symonds to quit after twelve before avenging himself upon the still red-hot Tancy Lee that June. When he hosted and dominated American flyweight Young Zulu Kid in December his claim was beyond dispute. The first undisputed flyweight world champion had been born.

    Between 1911 and 1920, Wilde lost to just one flyweight in Lee and he butchered his nemesis in the return. It is possible to be ultra-critical in pointing out that Wilde’s record of 1-1 against the best fly he ever fought is perhaps a little unsatisfactory, but Wilde settled their dispute in that second fight. This streak is the hottest of the hot and is paralleled only by the very greatest fighters in history; certainly, no flyweight ever recreated it. Wilde did all of this boxing with a savage abandon and in a style recreated by no fighters either before or after him, a style birthed by his power, his heart and his granite chin.
    This content is protected


    It's possible - arguable - that this is the single best fight that can be made in all of boxing's history. It is the best offence against the best defence of what may be the two best fighters head-to-head in their division's history. Think about that. How often can the two best fighters in a division's history be said to be this elemental?

    Who wins this battle of the elements, the most distilled fantasy fight in all of boxing?

    Who is the ATG champion in the flyweight division under the following rules?

    15 round fight.
    1950s referee.
    8oz boxing gloves.

    Cast your vote and explain yourself in a post below! You have 3 days.
     
  2. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

    27,131
    44,903
    Mar 3, 2019
    Ho. Ly. ****. What a finale, eh?

    I've got Wolgast, I don't think Wilde can out-box the Midget, the speed difference is too great. Sure, Wilde has an uncanny feel of range and distance, but there are absolutely no doubts about Wolgast's chin. I think he could take what Wilde lands on him. So, if Wilde isn't take the points, or getting the KO. I'm picking Wolgast, I think he'd pull some kinda of Pep/Saddler-esc performance out of the bag.

    Wolgast UD15.

    I feel like a hater; I haven't picked Wilde once yet. :lol:
     
  3. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

    55,255
    10,354
    Jun 29, 2007
    Wolgast footwork and defense is something to behold. His problem is he's fighting an all-time fast handed puncher, who targets the head and the body equally well and has a radar-like range in terms of how close he needed to be.

    Wilde would not concern himself with Wolgast pin weight like power, he'd cut off the ring and trade all day long. Eventually, wearing Wolgast down by throwing more punches and the harder punches while occasionally being made to look silly based on Wolgast footwork and ducking ability.

    Wilde TKO 14
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  4. ChrisJS

    ChrisJS Boxing Addict Full Member

    3,238
    7,119
    Sep 11, 2018
    That’s similar to how I’d envisage it. Wilde slowly poking away at a deficit but being too strong late.
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    Absolutely magical.
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    This content is protected
    This content is protected


    If you had to guess which one was the killer puncher and which one was the box-mover based upon their publicity shots, you'd get it wrong I bet.
     
  7. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

    4,405
    3,881
    Jun 28, 2009
    I knew this was going to be the final if they were in opposite halves of the draw, been thinking about it for a few days but I'm still nowhere *******ing nearer to picking a winner tbh. Very hard fight to weigh up for me with a lot of potential ifs and buts, partly because both of them are left field in terms of approach and very unique intuitive fighters.

    Wilde's timing and nifty innate judgment of distance prior to striking quickly from nowhere with either hand could make Wolgast's baiting and attempting to slip and then throw an angled volley of jabs and counters on the move much harder to pull off than against a textbook fighter. Power and timing can make a big difference in this type of battle between two closely matched fighters in terms of throwing the lighter hitter off balance if you can beat him to the first punch and force him off balance, make him reset or adjust more than vice versa or make him wary of consistently leading. And that's even if he manages to take such frightening power as Wildes.

    That said, Wolgast could recover instantly and improvise brilliantly without being thrown off or made to reduce his output even when taking punches in an exchange, nor is Wilde going to be presented with the usual speed, set of angles, movement and selection of punches to try and read and then quickly trap. Wolgast was the quicker man imo, a genius at landing blows from any position without having to set and on top of that his work rate was ridiculous, so much so that Wilde would have to balance out constantly thinking very quickly and creatively with maintaining a very high pace to not allow the Midge to simultaneously outspeed him, outfox him, outweird him and outwork him. A big job. Obviously he has nothing worry about in terms of power and can afford to just keep throwing trip hammer punches in between setting traps, a big challenge for Wolgast to circumnavigate. But then again he was made of iron, although Wilde didn't need to.bomb a fighter out to beat him.

    You just know it's a series of fights between them required, which we don't have. Hoo ****. I'm going for Wolgast on points in a razor close fight just to narrow the poll and be a contrarian bell end.
     
  8. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

    4,405
    3,881
    Jun 28, 2009
    Also, I'm afeard that I've just chatted a potful of bollocks.
     
    ChrisJS likes this.
  9. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,467
    Sep 7, 2008
    On film Wilde pops as a fleet-footed boxer as well as a two-fisted puncher. He also demonstrates excellent reflexive head movement and upper body movement.

    I think his quick jab and feet might force Wolgast to come forward. And if Wolgast is leaping around the ring like the speedy freak of a pure boxer he was, we know Wilde has the artillery to and footstpeed to track him down like few others were able to.

    Honestly I think this would be a really messy fight that is not easy on the eye even for purists.

    I just think Wilde would get more done BUT it might be like his fight with ‘Little’ Jackie Sharkey, who was able to raid him with fast flurries and get out of danger. Wilde landed the cleaner, harder shots in that one. ‘Lost’ a NWS 10....but despite Sharkey being horrendously underrated today, I’m still of the opinion he was no Midget Wolgast. So if Sharkey can outwork him, Wolgast should be able to as well.

    Gunto my head? Wilde decision in a close one where he’s doing more chasing than he’d like to. However if my hypothesis is correct and Wilde’s own speed doesn’t allow Wolgast to dictate the range and pace, then Wilde would perhaps win decisively (on the cards, not even Wilde is stopping Wolgast)
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    OK here's me:

    Against Frank Genaro in 1930 on the biggest night of his career, Midget Wolgast got full-on blasted by a Genaro right hand, hurt him, put him back, early in the fight, and Wolgast changed. He changed his fight approach. He tried to out-peck Genaro. He got hit with a very hard punch, and he changed his style to a more a conservative, counter-punching approach. That's interesting to me.

    It's not just any fight: it's the biggest fight of Wolgast's career. And Genaro, a much lesser puncher, was able to put him in a box.

    Wilde would put him in a box. Genaro early, Wilde, booming right hand, Wolgast goes on the slide. He'd try to come back and Wilde would get him again. And again. Wilde would win key rounds. You can see it. Two rounds up in the air, splitting the judges, then, boom, Wilde wins a key round beyond all dispute. No knockdowns. Just four or five clear Wilde rounds in and among the confusing storm. Enough to bring him a decision on conflicting scorecards.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    This content is protected


    Genaro vs Wolgast?
     
  12. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

    82,426
    1,467
    Sep 7, 2008
    As you know, Wolgast’s inability to beat Genaro is why I don’t rank him as highly as you do. That win and unifying the belts would’ve been the cherry on top of an amazing record.
     
    George Crowcroft likes this.
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    Their draw is definitely frustrating. If one of them wins clean, there's your GOAT right there for me. But MW sure doesn't need Genaro for a top five rating; he defeated more made men than any other flyweight so far as I can tell. At the poundage.

    An hour to crown a champion!
     
  14. Gudetama

    Gudetama Active Member Full Member

    1,037
    914
    Sep 11, 2017
    I'm not voting as I don't want my lack of knowledge on the lower weights to skew the poll. I also harbour a weighty bias towards Wilde, who is one of my ten personal favourite fighters of all times.
    Nonetheless, I have been following this tourney series with much interest, curiosity and enjoyment.
    Good job, everyone
     
    McGrain likes this.
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,020
    48,132
    Mar 21, 2007
    It's up!

    Jimmy Wilde is the ESB flyweight champion.

    Wherever he is, i'm sure he's stacking this alongside his most cherished honours.

    Personally I was looking forwards to his inevitable dust-up with Miguel Canto but Peter Kane busted him, so no joy, a terrible shame. Still, Wilde did good business and saw off some good fighters before taxing Wolgast consistently and surprisingly in the final, to take a surprisingly dull and rather rather clear unanimous decision. Wolgast had his moments early but he didn't like what Wilde had to give him.

    Wilde fights in such an odd and strange manner, it's magical really how he was pre-eminent in his own time and rates now as one of the greatest of all time. Head-to-head he has the clear respect of a hardcore of posters who really know their boxing.

    A worthy, worthy winner.

    This content is protected