ATG LIGHTWEIGHT TOURNIE: QF 1 - TONY CANZONERI UD15 JOE GANS

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Jul 1, 2020.


Who will win?

Poll closed Saturday at 12:41 AM.
  1. Gans

    42.9%
  2. Canzoneri

    57.1%
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Tony Canzoneri took out Freddie Welsh in the first round and gets another Old Master for his trouble, Joe Gans; Gans outpointed Kid Lavigne.

    Joe Gans, seeded one, 158 recorded victories to twelve recorded losses despite his turning professional in 1893, just thirty years after the Emancipation Proclamation. A fourth class citizen in a third class sport oozing unalloyed class in every move he made.

    Gans asked for his 1900 contest with Frank Erne in pursuit of the world title to be stopped due a cut caused by an accidental clash of heads. That is important to remember – he asked for it to be stopped.

    That he re-emerged is almost a miracle. The complexities of being a black fighter in this era cannot be exaggerated. In his 1906 victory over Battling Nelson, Gans was hit low, butted, thumbed, but careful to help Nelson to his feet when he fell; always in the ring his appearance had to be that of a gentleman, especially when the opposition was white. But even good conduct wasn’t going to be enough to bring him back from a quit job and then a dive that saw boxing banned in Illinois. Only one thing could bring a fighter back from that: pure, unadulterated skill.

    That skill fostered a three-year tear through what I am happy to call the deepest lightweight division in history. He smashed former “colored” lightweight champion Bobby Dobbs to pieces twice in 1901, added to his mastery of George McFadden, having already knocked out the era’s other defensive genius, Young Griffo, waiting patiently for the mistakes he would use to put his supposed peer away in eight. So consistently brilliant was he that despite the color of his skin and the fact that Erne had already repelled him once, a second title fight was made between the two.

    “After knocking on the door for ten years,” wrote the Brooklyn Eagle, “Joe Gans, colored pugilist, is at last the lightweight champion of the world.”

    It took ten years and fifty seconds; Gans dispatched Erne in the first.

    Trials and tribulations; do they make the man? Gans had walked a hard and lonely road, a decade of warfare during which he had convinced the world of his brilliance, disgraced himself and convinced the world once more. Nevertheless, this is but a sliver of that which he achieved. He staged fourteen successful title defences – fourteen. Nobody does fourteen at lightweight. It’s absurd. And Gans defended against excellent competition.

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    Tony Canzoneri’s 7-4 record in lineal title fights gets more impressive the more you look; it is very clear that his first match with Barney Ross could have gone for rather than against him and even the decision in their rematch was seen by some as an injustice. An astonishing fighter, Canzoneri (seeded 9)opened up a new avenue for boxing technique but was followed by almost nobody due to the difficulty of mastering it. All feints and leans and surprising punches, I have, in the past, described his style as vaporous, a hellish blend of vanishing physicality and punishing power.

    Having lost his featherweight title in 1928 he spared little time in assaulting the lightweight division but was turned away by Sammy Mandell in 1929. This did not discourage him, and when Al Singer came to the title, a man with whom Canzoneri had already boxed a draw right after dropping his featherweight crown, his time had come. In what The New York Times deemed “one of the most startling upsets” of all time, he blasted Singer out in a single round. He was no less brilliant in twice turning away his old nemesis Jack “Kid” Berg, absolutely butchering the man who had crushed him in 1930. The wonderful Kid Chocolate dropped a close decision to him in 1931 and fell to him in just two in 1933; footage of one of these contests is readily available and is as beautiful an exhibition of box-punching as can be seen anywhere.

    One more successful defense against Billy Petrolle preceded his losing the lightweight title to Barney Ross by way of controversial decision; when Ross moved up, Canzoneri took the title once more, this time against no less a figure than Ambers. Ambers immediately beat it from him, and repelled him in a defense to win their rubber, but by then his legacy was secure.
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    Who will win under the following rules?

    15 round fight.
    1915 referee.
    8oz boxing gloves.
    10 points must.

    Cast your vote and explain yourself in a post below! You have 3 days.
     
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  2. Jester

    Jester Active Member Full Member

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    I see Canzoneri as being just a bit too well rounded for Gans to fully figure out. Both men are evenly matched in a number of regards and Canzoneri was extremely hard to outthink. I think this fight would be similar to the Kid Chocolate bout, with Gans being more offensively minded, but Canzoneri still picks up the decision.
     
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  3. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cobra Will Always Bite Back... Full Member

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    Oops, forgot I voted without posting. I think this'd be great to study, but boring to watch. I tend to think that Canzoneri is a bit greater P4P, and Gans greater at 135. I also tend to see Canzoneri as a bit more talented and having better feet, but Gans as a better ring general, with a higher ring IQ.

    Both guys were masters, but Canzoneri didn't look as good when he had to lead. He's a natural counter-puncher, and so I think as the bigger, longer guy that the balls in Gans' court. Gans also has the jab advantage here, and in these technical battles, I tend to go with the guy who has the better jab. Which is what I've done.

    I don't mean to make it sound one-sided, it'd be competitive as **** and would warrant many rematches. I'm picking Gans though.
     
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  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    All done tomorrow morning!

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  5. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    Such an amazing matchup and no interest from forum? :(
     
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  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    OMG as if I didn't see this fight posted!

    I love Canzoneri I really do. But a low guard against one of the best jabs in history and one of the most powerful punchers in LW history is not a good combination.

    Canzoneri relies on timing, timing can be offset with a strong jab and that's something Gans has.

    Plus when Canzoneri does get his picture perfect hooks in, which he did against everyone, Gans will fight fire with fire and that's a fire Canz cannot put out.

    Gans UD.
     
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  7. Bukkake

    Bukkake Boxing Addict Full Member

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    As I have mentioned before, I'm very impressed with Canzoneri, who I pick to win on points in this one.

    I've read so much about Gans' great jab - but I don't really see it as being anything extraordinary. In his fight with Herman he has a substantial reach advantage, and you would think a stiff jab would be a prime weapon against his much smaller opponent - but where is it? It looks like he's using it mostly as a range-finder, or to simply push Herman away from him.

    I know, it will probably be seen as sacrilege - but Gans doesn't really look that special to me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020 at 4:38 PM
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  8. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Gans was certainly an amazing boxer and a fine man. But nice guys finish last in this world, so I'm going with paisano mio Tony. UD 10.
     
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I'm going with Canzoneri by decision. I think his combination punching in attack and slick footwork, upper body movement and anticipation when not on the attack would win him a comfortable decision. His combination punching is pinpoint and precise and that's the ticket here against the Gans style for me.
     
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  10. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Ii6 Full Member

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    He showed it against Battling Nelson.
     
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Tony Canzoneri staged a come-from-behind rally to outpoint the old master Joe Gans in the first quarter final of the ATG lightweight tournie, in what amounts to a minor shock, or at least surprise.

    Gans controlled the early going finding Canzoneri unerringly with flurries and a jab to the body, timing his attacks with almost uncanny regularity. Canzoneri, after arguably losing all five opening rounds, poured on the aggression and stunned Gans with a high overhand right that opened a bad cut on Joe's lip; hereafter Canzoneri had some success leaning and feinting Gans with this right hand and delivering straight lefts while Gans sought to protect the worsening cut on his lip. The final third of the fight was evenly contested Canzoneri appeared to win key exchanges and earn the narrow unanimous decision he received.
     
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    This result upsets me, but I will live with it.
     
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  13. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm sure that after the fight Joe would have shook Tony's hand and congratulated him. Then Spike Lee would make a movie showing how the fight was fixed against Joe.
     


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