ATG LIGHTWEIGHT TOURNIE: ROUND 1, FIGHT 1 - JOE GANS UD15 KID LAVIGNE

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Jun 18, 2020.


Who will win?

Poll closed Jun 21, 2020.
  1. Gans

    81.8%
  2. Lavigne

    18.2%
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The Old Master, Joe Gans, 158 recorded victories to twelve recorded losses despite his turning professional in 1893, just thirty years after the Emancipation Proclamation. A fourth class citizen in a third class sport oozing unalloyed class in every move he made.

    Gans asked for his 1900 contest with Frank Erne in pursuit of the world title to be stopped due a cut caused by an accidental clash of heads. That is important to remember – he asked for it to be stopped.

    That he re-emerged is almost a miracle. The complexities of being a black fighter in this era cannot be exaggerated. In his 1906 victory over Battling Nelson, Gans was hit low, butted, thumbed, but careful to help Nelson to his feet when he fell; always in the ring his appearance had to be that of a gentleman, especially when the opposition was white. But even good conduct wasn’t going to be enough to bring him back from a quit job and then a dive that saw boxing banned in Illinois. Only one thing could bring a fighter back from that: pure, unadulterated skill.

    That skill fostered a three-year tear through what I am happy to call the deepest lightweight division in history. He smashed former “colored” lightweight champion Bobby Dobbs to pieces twice in 1901, added to his mastery of George McFadden, having already knocked out the era’s other defensive genius, Young Griffo, waiting patiently for the mistakes he would use to put his supposed peer away in eight. So consistently brilliant was he that despite the color of his skin and the fact that Erne had already repelled him once, a second title fight was made between the two.

    “After knocking on the door for ten years,” wrote the Brooklyn Eagle, “Joe Gans, colored pugilist, is at last the lightweight champion of the world.”

    It took ten years and fifty seconds; Gans dispatched Erne in the first.

    Trials and tribulations; do they make the man? Gans had walked a hard and lonely road, a decade of warfare during which he had convinced the world of his brilliance, disgraced himself and convinced the world once more. Nevertheless, this is but a sliver of that which he achieved. He staged fourteen successful title defences – fourteen. Nobody does fourteen at lightweight. It’s absurd. And Gans defended against excellent competition.
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    In the finest era in lightweight history, George “Kid” Lavigne has not a single recorded loss during the first ten years of his incredible ring career although it is possible that he posted losses in bare-knuckle contests lost to the sands of time. But if, as the record books indicate, he turned professional in 1886 and didn’t post his first loss until 1897 when he dropped a couple of Newspaper Decisions in six round contests, that is as astonishing a feat as can be detailed.

    More astonishing, perhaps, are his dual wins over “The Demon” Joe Walcott. Walcott, even smaller than Lavigne’s 5’3, was the terror of his day, perhaps the hardest pound-for-pound puncher in an era that included the likes of Sam Langford and Aurelio Herrera. Their two contests fought two years apart for the lightweight title may have been the occasions upon which the two hardest hitters ever to share a ring met. So naturally, their first fight went the distance.

    Things get a little complex now, in keeping with the traditions of the era. To obtain a title shot, Walcott had to agree to the title only changing hands in case of a knockout (much like a no decision bout). This limited him tactically, for obvious reasons. That said seek and destroy was very much Walcott’s preferred approach. A legitimately thunderous puncher with a rough-hewn chin to match his bombs, Lavigne happily met him ring center. Each man had in his corner one of the greatest technicians of the pre-WW1 era, George Dixon seconding for Walcott, Tommy Ryan seconding for Lavigne in what was a legitimate dream fight, but their contest was a bloodbath; it ended with Walcott cut to the forehead and one of Lavigne’s ears sliced almost from his head but most of all with a Lavigne rally.

    Still, the agreed rules make the reporting confused; was Lavigne greeted enthusiastically as a winner because he had actually won 8 or more of 15, or was it the case of an audience impressed with his bravery and pigmentation? Fortunately Lavigne cleared the matter up by re-matching Walcott in 1897. Still the world champion, he won on this occasion clearly, one California newspaper stating that “Lavigne whipped Joe Walcott and whipped him thoroughly.” Walcott quit at the end of the twelfth, weight-drained and battered.

    Other notables dispatched by this lightweight ferocity include Kid McPartland, Andy Bowen and Jack Everhardt. As a combination of punch, heart and chin he may be unequalled at the weight.
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    Who will win under the following rules?

    15 round fight.
    1900s referee.
    8oz boxing gloves.
    10 points must.

    Cast your vote and explain yourself in a post below! You have 3 days.
     
  2. KeedCubano

    KeedCubano Read my posts in a Jamaican accent Full Member

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    Lavigne POWA!!!!!
     
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  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Nothing wrong with that pick. Lavigne got the style advantage, maybe. Gans is so tough it might not matter though.
     
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  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Joe Gans imo, he's the first filmed fighter to truly demonstrate that slick black boxing style, plus he had brutal power himself.

    He reckons George Dixon taught him everything he knew so perhaps Dixon deserves more praise here, but watching Gans as his best is an absolute thing of beauty imo.

    I favour Gans over almost anyone tbh, I'm a ridiculously huge fan of his style, his ability and his availabile footage.

    The more raw, power driven pressure style of some of the turn of the century boxers is wrongly ridiculed imo. We have to remember Fidel La Barba won his series of fights with Kid Chocolate and Carl Froch broke the top ten P4P list during his prime.

    So we can't just say Gans is too modern to lose to a brawler like Lavigne.

    I refuse to consider the McGovern fight. Refuse entirely.

    I'm going with Gans, at his best he outclassed a division in a world that didn't want him as champion. He played the game and cuffed his hands when he had to but when he was on fire, he was sensational.

    For my money, even if Lavigne as the strength to force Gans into a brawl, Gans will come out on top, and if its fought at range, Gans will come out on top.

    Joe Gans.
     
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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    I'll go with Gans based on there being footage, but I think Lavigne sparks him if he lands clean. Gans' jab probably wins the day here.
     
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  6. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    So Gans is your #1 LW then, McGrain? Hmm, I like it.

    I've been really really really looking forward to this tourney, since I can actually join in them all AND it's the GOAT division.
     
  7. Eye of Timaeus

    Eye of Timaeus Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I know who you think will win and I agree.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He is, on balance, though there's more than one acceptable answer I think that's the best one.
     
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  9. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Worth noting Gans was also getting outboxed by Erne.

    I'm not sure, but I'm throw in for the underrated Lavigne.
     
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  10. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Gans, I just think he's a tad better ….
     
  11. Webbiano

    Webbiano Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ok McG, we get it, can’t come up with your own lists so you use us to collect your data for you. Unbelievable.

    I’d take Gans, I’m slightly bias though as he’s one of my all time favourites
     
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    On Lavigne's first fight with Walcot, there seems to have been some complexities with the title.

    I think Lavigne claimed the title at the time, but I've seen him later say McAuliffe was still champion at that point.
     
  13. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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    Could've made for a great podcast topic...
     
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  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Joe Gans boxed his way to a healthy points victory over Kid Lavigne in the first round, booking his second round berth.

    The Kid never stopped trying and he took several early rounds on pressure and clearly won the 10th after shaking Gans with a right hand, but the rest of the match belonged to Gans; in fact, in the fourteenth and fifteenth it looked, momentarily, like Lavigne might be the one to go as Gans reigned punishment down upon him. Lavigne was too tough to crumble though and he dropped a wide decision, 11-4 twice and 10-5.