ATG Middleweight Chin Tier list-The Top Forty

Mike Gibbons is arguably every bit as impressive as Sugar in this department, 132 bouts and no stoppage losses. I can't find a count against him though there are a couple of "no counts" listed, flash KDs where he was up before the referee could hit one. Thoughts?

 

It's not over yet, Robinson could get a Solid rating!

 

Me too, but JT did bring up the thing, Robinson was probably down as much or more than anyone in Titanium, it's just about how much that matters.

 

Alright, I think it's fair to say that enthusiasm for this project has waned - if Robinson can't inspire discussion I think there's probably nobody who can. I'll lash through the remainder of the top six very quickly and then we'll sew it up at a top 40.

Giardello, Greaves, LaMotta, Castellani all downed Robinson and none of them impresses me as a puncher - toss in his perfect balance and I think that this leads me to believe that Robinson was Iron not Titanium. I don't vote based on what other people are in what brackets but where I think a fighter belongs. I'm not really arguing with any Titanium picks, but I think that Iron is where Robinson belongs at this weight. Titanium at welter.

Gibbons, I am guessing at Titanium, I think that's the right spot for him. Probably unknockoutable in his weight range in his era. This does kick up an interesting question though - 2024 middleweight punchers will generally hit harder than 1900 middleweight punchers. It is difficult stretching the idea across the piece because modern MW chins are dealing with 1900 era light-heavyweights. Then again, their chins are backed by that extra mass too. Jiminy.

 

Nobody really put a dent in Charley Burley. He was never seriously hurt in the ring and he was never stopped. He fought form welterweight to heavyweight. I personally think he is a Titanium lock, but i'm biased, I love Charley. Bivins, Charles, Moore, none of them ever had him in real trouble, in fact the reverse was true most of the time. Bivins was holding on in the tenth, Moore, don't get me started. But Burley did have elite defence and elite balacne so maybe there's something disguised there?

Holman Williams is a more difficult case. He fought nearly 200 fights, and was stopped just three times - once on a cut, once by Charley Burley (stopped on his feet) and once by Archie Moore, who really kicked the hell out of him - but Moore was a light-heavyweight by the time he and Williams got definitive. Even still, Williams was able to survive and beat him once, 160 vs 170. Burley did bounce him around though in another fight before Burley threw his shoulder. On balance i'm going to rather reluctantly recommend Iron for Williams.

Finally we have Staley Ketchel. 50-70 fights, stopped in three. These were against Jack Johnson (not interested - Johnson could have stopped any of them, Hagler, Lytell, Dillon, anyone in the right circumstances, its just that none of them would have had the power to knock him down and draw the ire); a very weird fight very early in his career where Ketchel quit claiming he was blinded by something smeared on his opponent's gloves; and against Billy Papke. Papke, obviously, is the most important one. Jim Jeffries himself, who was refereeing that day, described this as the most violent beating in ring history. Papke hurt Ketchel seriously in the first round and spent 12 rounds beating the absolute crap out of him (Ketchel seems to have rallied a bit 7-9) before stopping him. Papke was an elite puncher. 12 rounds of that type of punishment is absurd - and he still couldn't get the count out of Ketchel who just kept on getting up until the goriest HW champion of all time decided that the fight was too brutal to be allowed to continue. Ketchel is titanium for me.