Looks like Papke is creeping towards Iron, I think it's fine, he's either Iron or Titanium for sure, i'd probably go for Titanium myself but it doesn't upset me to have him thought of as Iron.
Still no verdict on Billy Papke yet, I hope a few more people wade in. But I'm going to introduce to the chat Joey Giardello. And I think this might be a bit more difficult than people think. Giardello has four stoppage losses for his 97-26-8. He was KTFO by Harold Green in 1950. He was stopped on his feet by punches against Nate Collins in 1966 post the Tiger beating. The other two were stoppage losses on cuts. This guy is one of the great MW survivors and he survived: Ray Robinson (1963) and Dick Tiger, back to back in fact, winning both fights. I think he did fifty rounds with Tiger in total. He did 15 with Carter. Twenty with Rivero. Twenty with Henry Hank. There are other punches, but was Giardello down during any of this? I can't remember a big fight with him getting decked! Who decked him? Who really hurt him? This is one of those weird little anomalies but if Green knocked him out in 1950 then nothing for 15 years despite this murderer's row where does that leave him? This content is protected
Green doesn't have an impressive KO %, but Giardello was a relatively green just turned 20-year old. Collins has a decent KO % & Giardello was past prime, aged 36. In between Giardello fought some wonderful fighters & decent punchers, including Rubin Carter, past prime SRR, Dick Tiger x 4, George Benton, Henry Hank, Jesse Smith, Juan Carlos Rivero & Terry Downes, as well as many wonderful fighters who whilst not possessing high KO %'s punchers, could still hit. I can see an argument for solid, but only 1 stoppage, on cuts, during that 100-fight, 16-year run, against that opposition, means my vote is iron.
Totally on board with Papke and Giardello = iron. I can't rate Giardello below that personally for reasons Greg stated.
Alright alright alright, Giardello is Iron. I would have gone Papke titanium myself, but majority usually rules so OK.
What are you going to do about James Toney though? Here he is being knocked on his by a single shot from Reggie Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mMx8UEeRczo Is that Titanium?
And what about the problem that is Lloyd Marshall. Marshall went 71-25-4 and he was stopped 11 times, but he was never stopped by knockout punches at MW. His stoppage losses at MW are cuts and that's it - he was never hit and stopped. From what I can see, he wasn't really knocked about at MW at all. Marshall gives the opposite problem - he is a guy with a reputation for a chin that is not ATG up at LHW, probably justified, down at MW? There is no real evidence that he did not have very good punch resistance. This content is protected
Probably. Toney's chin demonstrated the kind of tensile strength, which exceeds that of 'Iron', and is more akin with 'Titanium'.
Marshall's is an interesting case but, assuming you are referring to Ceferino Garcia's TKO stoppage of Marshall in their second encounter of 1939, it is their first match that tells more of a story in relation to the latter's chin. Garcia had bounced Marshall 4 times on the way to a decision victory, a few weeks earlier. So - compared to, say, Toney's being knocked down once by Johnson, Marshall's case is a little more severe, in that it happened more often (twice in round-3; once in round-4 and once in round-10). Marshall lost his bout with Garcia, whereas Toney went on to win his against Johnson. Marhsall was the bigger man against Garcia, whereas Toney and Johnson were evenly match, physically.