With all this recent talk af ATG status of boxers eg Pac Man, PBF etc etc... What I want to know is, what in your opinions does a boxer need to achieve today to beat the likes of SRR at the top of the ATG lists... to me it just seems impossible for anyone to concede that some of the past ATG's can be bettered....
They can't be bettered because their level of competition is miles above what these guys are facing. Pacquiao is closing in on all time great status due to facing the fighters that he is. Nobody else is even close to cracking a top ten or even 15 in my opinion.
Its all about the opposition fought, so in a way most of the old timers have a huge advantage as they fought so much more back then. Its going to be very hard for todays guys to be considered greater than guys like SRR for this reason alone.
So just as an example, say with the following fighters, what would they still need to do to get a top 5 atg position: Pac Man JMM PBF (if he were to come back)
There's no way in hell Juan Manuel Marquez gets into the top 5. For Pacquiao... beating Hatton, Floyd, Mosley, Marquez v Diaz winner. Long reign as 140lbs champion or Lightweight. Floyd... beating Mosley next up, Pacquaio, Hatton in England. Still don't even think it gets him there. Long reign at 147lbs. Without having compiled a detailed list, my top 5 would be: 5. Willie Pep 4. Roberto Duran 3. Henry Armstrong 2. Ezzard Charles 1. Sugar Ray Robinson
Yeah basically what has been said above. The fighters today don't fight the top guys anywhere near as much and the fact that it's that easy to win a World title compared to how hard it was 'back in the day' it's always going to be hard for the new age fighters to break in. Ray Robinson totally dominated the Welterweights for a long time, then won the Middleweight championship FIVE times against some very solid Middleweights while past his prime. A 35+ fighter back in the 1950's shouldn't be beating prime Middleweights and even though he split fights with a lot of them, the fact that he beat them shows how great he is. The other thing is that most fighters don't get the credit they deserve until after they retire because you need time to get over whatever bias you might have at the time about a certain fighter, fight etc. Take Larry Holmes for example. When he fought no one thought of him as a top 10 Heavyweight let alone a true great up there with Ali, Louis etc but now people rank Holmes where he deserves to be. Another good example is Tyson. People back when Tyson was killing everyone thought he was the greatest Heavyweight ever but while what he did was certainly impressive, looking back you'd have to be a really good wordsmith to argue Tyson in the top 5. Personally, I don't rank anyone who has made their debut in the last 20 years in my lists. Very few fighters continue to have successful careers after 20 years in the ring, so I think it's enough time for fighters to retire and their careers to be looked back on.
Pac to become top 5 all time? Basically do what Ippy said but bung on Pavlik, Forrest and someone like Cotto for good measure...Then maybe, Id probably have him top 10 with a record like that. I have Mayweather a bit behind Pac anyway..He would likely need to do more. Its just not going to happen especially with how boxing is today .."Back in the day" a loss wasnt the end of your career..you just kept fighting. But now it seems to destroy guys because the culture of win or nothing is deep rooted now. This era of boxing is not particularly strong because of the all the titles and division diluting what it means to be a world champion..Boxing is also not the sport it was, I feel the talent pool has gotten smaller if anything with its popularity waning somewhat. It was one of the premier sports throughout the first half of the 20th century and into the 70's, even the 80's. The pool of talent is being diluted by athletes heading to other sports where you earn more for less danger. Thats how I feel..I dont think boxing has got any better, unlike other sports the benchmark is lower or static..not being raised.
Floyd would have to beat hopkins or someone ridculoous above him to make it these day's and to be honest his the closest to doing it as he would beat pac and all pac's done is beat Oscar but floyd's done that.. \Maybe if on his way he beat kostya shane and a margritoa
For me, an ATG status means dominating a certain weight class for a long period of time, taking on all the very best fighters out there. If they lose, rematch & turn the tables and try to set the record straight. Its always been about who your fought & what the outcome. After watching mosley's performance over the weekend, I reckon he will be an ATG. He beat a fighter, who at the time was deemed on top of his game, & wasn't given much of a chance to win at age 37. He dominated the lightweights, defeated a prime oscar at 147 and has always looked to fight the very best. His record & whose on it speaks volumes of his fighting ability. The losses to forrest & wright shouldn't do him any injustice, styles make fights & both were world class, but he did do better in both rematches. The cotto fight, well it could of gone either way imo. I'll pick mosley to beat cotto in a rematch. I can't remember one fighter in mosley's prime that he avoided, some say maybe tszyu at 140, but he skipped that division as oscar was the biggest $$ prize to be got. Win or lose he was always gracious & has always shown to be an excellent ambassoder for the sport of boxing. IMO mosley is an ATG fighter.
So now, lets assume Mosley definitely doesnt retire and will still go on for another 2 years, what in your opinion would he have to do to reach top 5 ATG status?
Agree with you to a point. The standard and depth of quality of boxers has certainly fallen away. But consider for a minute cricket ATG for a comparison: Bradman, is unquestionably the greatest ever, and he played at a time when the game was almost amateur compared to now. The standard of most of the skills, particularly fielding in Bradman's day was vastly inferior to today, yet nobody in modern times has surpassed him, or even got close.
Most ATG's were fighting on a regular basis ie Jimmy Wilde would fight at the drop of a hat sometimes 15 - 20 times a year , fighters that many claim these days to be ATG's fought or fight 4 times a year and that pushing the boat out for some , Manny Pac and Joe Calzaghe do have a legit claim to be considered top 75 but for inactivity they could have scaled higher positions , No current fighters deserve to be considered within the top 20 for a number of reasons mainly though its down to quality of opposition and said inctivity imo .
