Thats right but I dont think you they are comparable. Cricket and other sports have increased in professionalism..They play more, its at a higher pace. Back in the day fighters were able to go 15 no problem, and several times a year more often then not..Now even elite fighters struggle with the 12 rounds distance whilst fighting no more then 3-4 times in a year. I also think fighters were tougher back then because of the culture of the day. There is the whole nostalgic arguement but boxing is a different example. The best play the best in cricket, the 100m dash is still just 8 guys sprinting down a straight but because of various reasons what it means to be the best in boxing has been cheapened.
Agreed mate, and it's a pity. Money, money hungry individuals and alphabet titles have definately screwed boxing into a shell of it's former self. Imagine the difference in the quality of matches if each division was only contesting one world title! The mind boggles, but it'll never happen again!
Hmmm - I think mosley would have to fight cotto again, pacman, hatton & mayweather, if he ever decides to front up again. These are the current elite fighters out there at that weight level. If he defeated them all, surely it would have to put him in great status on the ATG's list. Maybe not top 5 but very close IMO. Mosley has one of the best whose who of fighting on his boxing resume. At the end of the day I thinks its more important to judge a fighter as an ATG to the quality of his opposition throughout his career, division title reigns & noted performances in certain fights.
How does Duran make your top 5 out of curiosity... Seems like you would have to be using an inconsistent criteria. Also i think its way overboard in terms of what Pac would have to do... Floyd is the opposite, he would definitely need to do more than what has been listed there. Pac is a smaller fighter, Hatton he has already beaten, and Mosley is good, not legacy defining however.
As a lightweight, mosley had it all. He would be without doubt one of the best lightweights ever to lace the gloves. The fact that he just totally detsroyed an iron chinned warrior in margarito at age 37 speaks volumes of him as a great fighter.
Whatarock, i don't agree with some of the stuff you posted regarding who Pac would have to beat to be in the top 10. CLearly you were exaggerating, but still... He holds * 2 Dominant knockout victories over Morales (HOFer and arguably the greatest Mexican fighter to ever live) * 2 Dominant victories over Barerra (HOFer) * Victory over JMM (HOFer) * A stoppage victory over a much larger De la hoya (HOFer) Then a host of impressive performances against decent B level guys like: Diaz, Soliz, Larios, Velazquez, 3K Battery, Julio, Ledwaba. If he were to beat someone like Ricky Hatton, a naturally larger, genuine top guy at 140 and once again a sure fire HOF fighter, to not have him in your top 25 would be plain wrong. Out of curiosity Ipexpress, if Pac is so far behind the likes of Duran, can you point out where. In all honesty, i don't have much historical knowledge on the sport compared to you and WhataRock, but i just don't see the massive difference with someone like Duran. Especially when you take some of his losses into account (althoughmost were past prime).
Seriously I think you need to get some prime Duran. Bloke is a monster. Greatest Lightweight ever, beat the best version of Leonard, destoyed Davey Moore when a huge underdog, steps up and beats Iran Barkley. I think you'd find him on top 5 on most lists to be honest.
I've seen prime Duran, he is good. But i thought you were judging on resume here, not head 2 head ability, or dominance during prime. Otherwise i would have Roy Jones Jr at number 1
Whilst I agree Mosley was a great lightweight the fact that he never unified and only held one belt is one of the reasons he could never be near the top tier of ATG fighters.
... the arguements have raged.. and will continue to do so... Re: Duran... he DID not beat the best version of SRL... IMO.... Ezzard Charles has an amazing record.. yet, Won the H/W title in the weakest period of H/W histroy... Archie Moore deserved higher creditation than Charles... Love your work though W.a.R
Hey mate, What goes in Duran's favour is his complete and utter domination of a division. Pacquiao by comparison is a division jumper. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's harder to measure his greatness. Duran's level of competition is light years ahead at this point, but it helps that he was during a golden period of boxing. He caught guys in their prime, that certainly helps. Despite good wins over Morales, De le Hoya and Barrera (to a lesser extent) Pacquiao caught them past their best. He can't help it, but it counts against him. Then past it all, he manages to go and lose a decision by 2 pts and 1pt (twice) to perhaps the greatest Middleweight who ever lived. Hagler at the time was on a KO streak but Duran had him intimidated. If Duran had've caught De La Hoya in the state he was in against Pacquiao, I'd seriously have fears for his life, let alone the result. Duran was an absolute animal in the ring. Loved to fight and much worse, loved to hurt people.
Out of interest, what is the best version of Leonard then? He was one year off his first fight with Thomas Hearns. This version of Leonard had far more substance than the Leonard who appeared against Hagler... Moore is in my top ten, but not ahead of Charles. Ezzard was a light Heavy, like Moore and has a record of 16-2 against Maxim, Bivins, Moore, Burley & Marshall, which says it all. Kicking Joe Louis' arse certainly doesn't hurt his standing either. Granted, Louis was coming off a break, but he was still the World Heavyweight Champion, nearly 60 wins off the top of my head, with just one defeat. Charles also spotted him nearly 40 pounds as well, which evens things up more than enough.
Rise above - I think unifying is not as rated as it once was due to the number of belts that are available & the number of so called champions per division. When mosley was lightweight boss, there was no one in the division who could hang with him. That in itself makes him unified champion in my eyes.
I was exaggerating a bit but seriously not a lot..For Pac to be considered greater then guys like Sam Langford, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Benny Leonard and Ezzard Charles, based on his current achievements he would have to something along those lines. That was in response to the question what would Pac have to do to get into the top 5 alltime. If Pac beats Hatton..He moves into my top 40..With a very dominate win he would move just outside the 30..Its within reason he will retire inside my top 25 but it would take a few more big wins. Just for reference the HOF is quickly losing creditbility as to who they let in and who they dont. For instance a guy like Lional Rose hasnt even been considered yet but a guys like Barry McGuigan and Galaxy are in there. Go figure, the HOF have their agendas and their favourites. Regarding Pac's best wins..Of all those fighters JMM was the only one in his prime and that series in most people's eyes is at least drawn. Morales beat Pac clearly when he wasnt in his prime. And was far from it when Pac cleaned him up the next two times..I think those wins have to be put into context and not just taken at face value. Barerra was close to his best but was defintely into his very gradual decline, there were signs in the Tapia fight..Not to mention MAB had out of the ring issues going into that fight with Pac, those shouldnt could against Manny but they are well documented nonetheless..I think Pac always beats him anyway. It is definitely arguable that Morales is the greatest mexican fighter ever..in fact I dont think there is an arguement at all to hold him in that esteem. In a H2H sense I dont consider him that good to be honest..He probably makes the top 5 for super bantam, a relatively young division that is historically pretty weak in comparison. But there are a lot of featherweights and superfeatherweights I would have beating him..I wont even go into the lightweights, that list would be pages long. De la Hoya is a good win and the level of dominance was unexpected...But Oscar looked like the walking dead in there. Definitely not a man in his prime, defintely looked like a man who hadnt made that weight limit in 7 years. Trust me mate Im a huge Pac fan...Even more so than a Cotto one..I think I probably overrate him as it is and if there is any chance to move him up in my alltime rankings I will take it..but I just cant justify it. This is my current top 25 1. Ray Robinson 2. Henry Armstrong 3. Sam Langford 4. Harry Greb 5. Ezzard Charles 6. Benny Leonard 7. Roberto Duran 8. Willie Pep 9. Muhammed Ali 10. Joe Gans 11. Archie Moore 12. Joe Louis 13. Sugar Ray Leonard 14. Mickey Walker 15. Pernell Whitaker 16. Jimmy Wilde 17. Sandy Saddler 18. Gene Tunney 19. Carlos Monzon 20. Barney Ross 21. Marvin Hagler 22. Tony Canzoneri 23. Ike Williams 24. Bob Fitzsimmons 25. Emile Griffith Ive got Manny sitting at about 44 at the moment..The rest of my 100 is in the classic section if you want to look it up. Manny's p4p achievements are just crazy and it will probably be a long time before we see someone do anything like that again. But people dwell to much on the amount of divisions he has jumped..not the overall quality of opposition he has faced. He has never truly cleaned out a division and in some instances has beaten the weakest or at least not the strongest titlist there. RE: Duran, Jambo....You have to see his prime..I have seen a lot of it and I am yet to hear someone who has seen a lot of his prime career not be in awe of this guy. Watch his two wins over DeJesus..His first fight with Leonard and his fight with Palamino to see him at his best..There are others but most of those should be on youtube or easy to find. Then you can move on to his more obscure opponants, who were pretty good most of the time its just Roberto made them look bad and sent their careers into oblivion. I think having him at 7 is high and I cant justify him any higher..But I couldnt bare to have him any lower then say about 11 or 12..And I think outside the 15 is madness.
Interesting read:goodAgree with your comments regarding the HOF. Not anything there i disagree with. I don't actually have a list done up of all time greats, simply because as i said i have never been interested in the earlier eras of the sport. Looking at what you have done up there, i guess it would be pretty hard for Pac to push some of those guys out, even with a win over Hatton. I'll try and track down your list of ATG's in the classic forum, would be interesting to see how you've done yours.
