ATGs with resumes that lack elite fighters?

Maybe Tszyu stopped Judah from being an ATG?

 

Jeff Chandler.

 

Floyd.

 

I am not finding myself agreeing with many, if any of the picks here.

All these guys beat elite fighters, which is why we are talking about them today!

 

Why do people always trot out Benvenuti as this great win for Monzon. Benvenuti was shot when he fought Monzon. That win was nothing special. Just look at his track record:

1968-10-14 Doyle Baird Akron, US D PTS 10
Baird was a journeyman who had never faced a contender. His best win was over a totally shot Ted Wright who had only won 3 of his last 16 fights. Most people thought Baird beat Benvenuti.

1968-12-14 Don Fullmer San Remo, IT W UD 15
Benvenuti was knocked down by the light hitting Fullmer in winning a competetive
1969-05-26 **** Tiger New York, US L UD 10
**** Tiger was shot and ancient when he fought Benvenuti and beat him convingly.
1969-10-04 Fraser Scott Napoli, IT W DQ 7
Fraser Scott was fighting his first big fight, his first fight outside of the states, and his only previous win of note was an inconclusive TKO on a cut over Denny Moyer whose own last important fight ended in a knockout loss three years earlier. Scott was making Benvenuti look bad when the referee stopped the fight for literaly no reason. Worst stoppage Ive ever seen.

1969-11-22 Luis Manuel Rodriguez Roma, IT W KO 11
Rodriguez had carved Benvenuti up and was giving him a boxing lesson when Benvenuti pulled it out with a hail mary left hook.

1970-03-13 Tom Bethea Melbourne, AU L TKO 8
Bethea was a journeyman with only nine victories to his name. His last four fights had been losses and he yet he beat Benvenuti.

1970-05-23 Tom Bethea Umag, HR W KO 8
In the rematch Benvenuti forced Bethea to come to his backyard, literally (Umag is right next to Trieste where Benvenuti is from)

1970-09-12 Doyle Baird Bari, IT W TKO 10
This was another B.S. stoppage. Benvenuti was winning but he couldnt stop the ordinary Baird so the referee did it for him.

1970-11-07 Carlos Monzon Roma, IT L TKO 12

1971-03-17 Jose Roberto Chirino Bologna, IT L MD 10
Chirino had lost three of his last four fights and managed to drop Benvenuti and outpoint him.
1971-05-08 Carlos Monzon Monte Carlo, MC L TKO 3

I submit that Benvenuti was nowhere near the same fighter when he fought Monzon as he was earlier. In fact IMO his prime was before he won the MW title from Griffith.

 

Benvenuti had definitely become inconsistent, but i think it was more of a mental thing-living the big life as a star in italy-than the fact he had outright horribly declined.

He still generally gave a good effort and looked much sharper in the title fights and imo looked as good as he had since the Griffith fights in the first Monzon bout.That was a very high class fight.

i wouldn't agree the Rodriguez bout was a boxing lesson either.It was an ugly slopfest fight full of mauling and clinches where neither man looked his best and pretty close\hard to score until the stoppage.benvenuti wasn't immune to that sort of thing at 154 though, as cpunch and grab master Ki-Soo Kim had shown(regardless of him deserving the duke or not).

I'd say he was past-prime rather than shot.

 

Dempsey ... the best fighters he ever fought were ex light heavyweight Tunney who he lost to and Jack Sharkey and Marciano who fought old men ..

 

The big name and the "elite" fighter are total different things especially
in the steroid and other PED era.
To me the elite fighter who's very good athlete with decent skill and chin(prime Tony Tucker) or
an incredible skilled tough fighter in decent shape( good Holmes).
( To me a big name but **** athlete isn't elite fighter (Joe Frazier,Quarry) )

 

frazier wasn't the greatest all round athlete, but he had the physical tools needed for his style of fighting(or his limitations caused his style, either way he's elite).

 

Tszyu for sure. But no objective ****yst of his resume should consider him an ATG. Bottom line: he had a great management team who practiced superior matchmaking.

Lennox Lewis. Beat geriatric Tyson and Holyfield. And had two horrible one punch KO defeats.

 

Chavez beat Rosario. Rosario was a high quality champion at the time. Lockridge had recently been champion and would soon be agains after Chavez beat him. He was high quality. Regardless of the controversy, Meldrick Taylor was considered elite when he fought Chavez the first time.

 

Rodrigo Valdes is easily Monzon's best win and easily an elite fighter.

 

Carlos Zarate's record outside of Alfonso Zamora is pretty abysmal.

 

I just commented about Zarate in a thread you made. Rodolfo Martinez was a fantastic fighter.

 

Tszyu fought every legitimate contender for his title, the superior matchmaking comment is wrong. It's not his fault that the really huge names around his weight class didn't want to fight him. The only thing I would say negative towards Tszyu is that he didn't seem to chase the Mosleys, delahoya's and Mayweathers. They didn't chase him either, mind you. He had a great resume overall, he fought Juan Laporte around his 3rd pro fight for pete's sake! There are excellent names on his resume, some over the hill. I think overall his resume is very underrated. I think living in Australia hampered his career, out of sight out of mind, so to speak. As a big fan of Tszyu, one thing I would have liked to see him do, would have been to call out a few guys. He never did, I guess it wasn't in his make up.