Barney Ross: should he be higher up the lightweight lists?

Seldom do you ever see Barney Ross populate a top 5 all time lightweight list.

If there's any general majority opinion on the lightweight's, its this:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Gans
5. One of Ike Williams/Carlos Ortiz/Pernell Whitaker/Julio Cesar Chavez

I guess my enquiry is as to whether or not Barney Ross can stake a decent claim to be amongst the top 5 lightweights of all time.

It should be noted from the outset that Barney Ross beat a better fighter at lightweight than any other top 5 lightweight contender; I speak of course of Tony Canzoneri. Canzoneri, another underrated fighter, was better than Buchanan and DeJesus, better than Tendler and Welsh, better than Ambers, better than Blackburn, Holly or Nelson, better than Montgomery and Jack, better than Laguna, Brown and Elorde, better than Nelson, Ramirez and Rosario. These are of course the names of the best fighters that the other claimants to the top 5 beat.

Of the other top 5 claimants, only Benny Leonard, Joe Gans and Ike Williams have deeper lightweight resumes, and when it comes to how they look on film, Barney probably looks better than all three (of course there's no absolute prime footage of Gans or Leonard, and the best of Williams is probably not to be found on film either).

Is Ross being overlooked? Should he be top 5?

 

I think Chavez and Arguello face pretty much the same problems when up against the other guys because both, despite being great technicians, were a litte predictable in their approach. Arguello of course has the bigger punch, and maybe has a chance of pulling a stunning upset against a top lightweight if he catches him just right, but Chavez is probably a little more schooled in the trenches and could probably eek out decisions against some of the top guys if it becomes a trench war.

Interesting that you don't have Duran in your top three. He's usually a staple for that distinction, but I guess you see it differently.

Good post though mate, and hope you spend more time here at ESB in the classic section :good

 

Cheers JT

Sweet Pea, I was speaking here about the common opinion, and common opinion would place Chavez amongst the top 8 or so lightweights.

The lists I am describing are of course a combination of head to head ability and accomplishments. Were it just a matter of resumes, I don't think Whitaker or Chavez would come within a bull's roar of the top lightweights.

Anyway, I personally think Chavez does belong amongst the elite, largely because of how awesome he looked there in his breakdown of Edwin Rosario. That was one of the best performances I've ever seen by a lightweight, and though he looked a little less than brilliant against Ramirez, he was handling him with aplomb too.

As I said, a combo of the two, and Duran faced better lightweights than Pernell and looked quite brilliant in quite a few of the fights he had there so it's understandable.

That's a fair call, but what of Ross? Is he behind Ortiz and Williams for you?

Ortiz has the better body of work, but Armstrong beat a better fighter (Ambers) than Ortiz ever did at lightweight, and based on how he looked in the half hour I've seen of him in the second Ambers fight, I feel confident in saying he outworks Ortiz to a hardfought decision.

:good

 

Indeed, he's a quandary. At his best (e.g. Aragon II, DeMarco II, Salas III, Aroujo) he looks at least as good as Carlos Ortiz to me. Real strong, good solid skills, excellent technique and decent speed. But at other times, (e.g. DeMarco I) he looks quite ordinary. I haven't come to terms really with how much slack to lend him in fights that were apparently crooked, but if every story is to be believed he should sit comfortably within the top 15 I'd say.

As it stands he is outside my top 15, but that's with an asterisk, and one that will probably never be removed unfortunately...

 

Whitaker beat a lot of decent fighters, but if we are talking all time lightweight rankings, he probably beat only one guy that has a claim to a top 50 lightweight spot, and that's Jose Luis Ramirez. I could find plenty of lightweights that have better calibre opponents to their their name, as well as others of the calibre that Whitaker beat as a lightweight. They'd all probably have more losses than Whitaker did as lightweights, but they'd also probably have much more impressive names under their belts than Ramirez as well.

I think Duran's lightweight resume gets underplayed quite often. He didn't just beat Buchanan and DeJesus. Guys like Lampkin, Viruet, Mamby, Fernandez, Ishimatsu, Thompson (and Kobayashi and Marcel if you want to include them) are every bit as good imo as Mayweather, Pendleton, Paez, Nazario, Haugen. And it goes without saying that Buchanan and Dejesus were better lightweights than Nelson and Ramirez (though I'd give Nelson a chance at both).

I'm not too sure Ortiz beats Ross. If I was, I'd probably have no qualms in placing Ortiz above him, but as I'm not sure I've got to wondering whether Ross should indeed be placed higher. I think Ross would be every bit the match for Ortiz after seeing him perform against Canzoneri and Petrolle at lightweight.

They were totally different styles and it's hard to say. Laguna might very well beat Ambers head to head, but Amrbers was cut from the toughest cloth, and could stand and duke it out with any of the cruelest lightweights that ever lived. I think Ambers would do better against more lightweights than Laguna would, and his resume is a tad deeper imo, so I'd have him ahead of Laguna. It's not something altogether obvious that he was better though. Close call.