Based on his achievements you can not rank Calzaghe in top 10 p4p

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

I am talking about his achievements, not his skills.

Discuss.

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

Floyd done **** all? Tarver a broken down journeyman? You should apply for a job with your compatriot Gordon Brown, you would make a great spin doctor.

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

Rosseboi said:

And here's the money shot. Here's what proves your post is biased because Calzaghe's not american. Your insecurities and prejudicies all rolled into one.

Calzaghe owns anyone of 'your' fighters in his range. Deal with it like your 'compatriot' George Bush.
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Mate, I live in London, and I am certainly not american last time I checked, Russian in fact. Are you trying to say Labour do not like a bit of spin doctoring? This could be applied to any politicians anywhere, i just used Brown as fluxstuff is from Scotland.

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

fluxstuff said:

Please, in detail, explain what is incorrect about my assertion that I would be "spinning" the facts.

Floyd has, in the last four years, fought noone who would prove a serious challenge. He has moved through N'dou, Corley, Bruseles, Gatti, Mitchell, Judah, Baldomir and Oscar.

One of them is a future ATG - the others, excepting Judah, are half-competent journeymen. Judah's not much above that by any description. The Oscar he faced is years past his prime. So, really, that's the facts.

As for Tarver... good win over Roy. Good win over Johnson. And losses to both of them, as well as Ol' Popkins. Tarver is broken down - his skills have eroded and he's gotten old.

Don't dismiss someone's argument unless you can counter it with some analysis.
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Journeymen don't win world titles. Floyds wins whilst amazing are not diddly squat as you say. Journeymen are Michael Sprotts of this world.

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

fluxstuff said:

Undoubtedly true.

But that's not the way you should rank P4P. Skills have to come into it, otherwise Floyd has achieved **** all in the last four years of any real note.

Bernard's been beaten in 2 of his last four, and his two victories were over a broken down journeyman done good and a LMW fighting 20lbs above his natural fighting weight, while his two losses were over someone he should have beaten.

Winky was just beaten by an old man (depsite his disadvantages at the weight), drew with Taylor (above mentioned beatable fighter) and hasn't really impressed since beating Trinidad.

Cotto hasn't beaten anyone really elite yet (Judah being the best and just a step below) and hasn't really proved anything (until he fights Shane, leastways).

JMM only came back to the serious limelight by beating Barrera and hasn't really achieved a huge amount.

So, looking at all these things, you could say that none of them have really achieved anything to deserve top 10 P4P when you approaching it that way. But their skills prove the converse.
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I agree with this, and have stated something similar - but as we all know - its heresy to say such matters to manipulated masses. Good post.

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

... and to comply with the OPs requests - yes, Calzaghe has deserved his spot in top 10 p4p, despite the resume isn't on par with his skills.

Personally I am just hoping he is warming the seat for Kessler.

Boro chris · Aug 31, 2007

madpup said:

Mate, I live in London, and I am certainly not american last time I checked, Russian in fact. Are you trying to say Labour do not like a bit of spin doctoring? This could be applied to any politicians anywhere, i just used Brown as fluxstuff is from Scotland.
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It seems anti-americanisim is so rampant its now spreading to..............................Russians!?:huh :yep

Cookie · Aug 31, 2007

Why should achievements necessarily have something to do with the concept of P4P? In an indirect manner, yes. By using their achievements as some form of evidence to prove their skills and ability. But not directly. Achievements don't really have anything to do with who is the best fighter in the hypothetical situation where all weights are equal. Otherwise it is not a list of the best fighters, but a list of who possesses the best record in all of boxing.

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

greatdane said:

journey man corrie sanders took time of from his golf career to win his title over waldo:deal

so journey men do win titles:yep
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- not to mention - Baldomir, who anyone with half a brain knew he was a weak champ. I don't blame Floyd for removing him, but I won't hail him for it either.

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

fluxstuff said:

Your comment isn't entirely accurate if that's why you used Brown as your reference.

Brown wasn't really involved in the New Labour spin revolution, that was Blair along with Mandelson and Campbell. From all accounts, Brown never had time for them. In Mandelson's case, it was he who backed Tony Blair for the leadership after John Smith's death causing Brown numerous problems.

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Here is a reminder for you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4695823.stm

KayEpps · Aug 31, 2007

For Calzaghe to hold a belt as long as he did and still be undefeated - how you not put him in your top ten.

Ricky Hatton beat an older Kosta - pretty much lost to Collazo - then beat war drawn Castillo - put his in most people top ten.

You got to be joking.

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

greatdane said:

if recall correctly mate, i can do one better..

the bonafide punching bag gatti, didnt he have a title, before losing it to floyd. that has to be, the weakest of all, being beaten by baldo:yep
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Yeah, that is correct. I just decided not to be cruel, and chose the more diplomatic path.

madpup · Aug 31, 2007

fluxstuff said:

Your point still isn't accurate - I didn't say he never lied, I said he wasn't involved in the New Labour spin revolution, which he categorically was not.

He's a liar, no doubt, but no different to when the Tories stopped counting the under 18s on the unemployed list. Not lying, as such, just changing the goalposts.

Spin is mis-representing the truth to achieve a poistive or negative outlook depending on your needs.

Spin is "History will remember me kindly for deposing Saddam Hussein" because it avoids the truth of the matter and uses a POSITIVE outcome to disguise a negative reality.

Gordon Brown just tried to lop off two years worth of figures. That's not spin.
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You are not only delusional about boxers you like, but also seemingly politicians you support.

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

greatdane said:

im sure your diplomacy stems from a really relaxed atmosphere:rasta
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Unfortunately I am all out, and have been so for several days, but maybe its still in the system - nonetheless, its something I have to remedy. :rasta :rasta :rasta :rasta

DanePugilist · Aug 31, 2007

greatdane said:

perhaps we should plan a field trip for you. under the explanaition, that its educational:yep
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:yep :yep the word field sounds great - especially if its a field of something that negates speed:rasta

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