Battle of the green greats: Charles vs Robinson; December 1942

Soooo. Robinson wasnt in competitive fights?

 

Because the point that ETM was making is that Robinson was interested in making the most money for the challenges he set for himself. Not simply running around the country and fighting every fighter he could whether he got paid for it or not. Robinson didnt have to fight LaMotta or Burley. We are lucky he fought one of them... six times. Regardless of what people think today LaMotta was rated right up there with Burley and was as big or bigger to boot. He just also happened to generate a hell of a lot more money. Your comment was clearly meant to say that you dont care how much money Burley was or wasnt able to generate you only care about competitive fights, i.e. Robinson taking on Burley. Thats just not how the sport works. Never has. The two times Robinson tried to work toward a fight with Burley Burley blew any chance of that fight. Its only been in the last 20 or so years that people have suddenly seized on this idea that Robinson ducked Burley as being a legitimate reality. It wasnt. Burley was a hard headed individual who felt he should have been treated like a Robinson without ever having done what Robinson did to build his fan base. When reality smacked Burley in the face he would simply take his ball and go home. People have tried to equate this with Burley not wanting to throw in with the mob or play ball with big time promoters and managers but thats all nonsense. He was managed for a time by Lew Burston, a mob front and one of the most influential managers of that era and Burston couldnt do anything with Burley either. Burley was more often than not a boring, passionless fighter who took few chances in and out of the ring and thats a hard sell for the fans and promoters. Thats a reality that Burley was unwilling to see and admit to and that his fans today dont seem to grasp when they are claiming that this fighter or that fighter ducked him.

 

Interesting.

 

I really do not see how there is confusion or it is an issue anyway. From what I have read, Burley had no animosity and has even stated himself he does not blame Robinson for not fighting him because there was no money in it....

 

While reading ringside reports of Sugar Ray Robinson's and Charley Burley's bouts, take a look at the gate receipts for those bouts. Robinson became a good drawing card very quickly after becoming a professional fighter and remained one for the rest of his great career.

Burley wasn't much of a drawing card during his entire career, especially for a fighter of his stature. It appears that San Francisco and Oakland are the cities in which Burley's main event bouts drew the largest gates of his career. So far, the largest gate that I found for Burley while fighting in a stand-alone main event was about $15,000. in Oakland during 1946. His opponent, Oakland Billy Smith, may have been more of a gate attraction than Burley himself in Oakland.

- Chuck Johnston

 

I'm in an indecisive mood today so I'm calling Charles-Robinson in 1942 at 160... a draw. Sorry.

 

I get that but that completely ignores the reality of this sport and this business particularly in the 1940s. Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to hear legitimate reasons why the fight wasnt made in favor of just shouting from the rooftops that you wish it was made or that it should have been made doesnt make sense. Not saying this is you but plenty of people have done that and its ridiculous. It completely ignores pertinent facts like: Burley and Robinson werent in the same weight class, Robinson chose to fight fighters as highly rated as Burley who just happened to bring a lot more money to the table, whenever Robinson ventured into locations where Burley was established (Pittsburgh and Minneapolis) Burley cried that he deserved as much as Robinson in negotiations and then abandoned camp pretending Robinson ducked him, and the one place where Burley (and a lot of these other black fighters who people think Robinson should have fought) made any money at all was California, a place thousands of miles from where Robinson was established in an era with no television coverage and very little radio coverage, which itself ignores the fact that in that era a fighter was expected to come into a new city and establish his bonafides as a gate attraction and then get a big local match. Robinson did this twice in relation to a fight with Burley out East and both time Burley blew those deals, not Robinson. It would be several years before Robinson would venture to California where Burley made any money at all. So again, a lot of the context gets lost on arm chair historians who claim this guy or that guy ducked some of these fighters.

 

When during 1942 would you have a bout between Ezzard Charles and Sugar Ray Robinson? Keep in mind that Robinson was fighting while weighing from 134 1/2 to 141 pounds until the beginning of 1942. During 1942, Robinson weighed from 141 3/4 to 146 pounds.

Until the beginning of 1942, Charles weighed from 157 to 164 1/2 pounds. During the first six months of 1942, Charles weighed from 160 to 163 1/2 pounds. But from July 1942 to March 1943 with one exception, Charles weighed 163 to 168 pounds. He did weigh 160 1/4 pounds for a bout with Jose Basora at Hickey Park in Millvale, Pennsylvania on August 17, 1942. But Charles never weighed less than 165 pounds during his three bouts from December 1942 to March 1943. After March 1943, Charles was serving in the U.S. Army and didn't resume his professional boxing career until three years later. Charles never weighed less than 169 pounds when fighting again.

During 1942, Ezzard Charles fought Charley Burley two times in the Pittsburgh area, where Burley lived much of his life. For the first bout, Charles and Burley respectively weighed 161 1/2 and 155 pounds. For the second bout, Charles and Burley respectively weighed 160 and 151 pounds. In the first bout on an all-star card at Forbes Field, Charles, not quite 21 years of age, scored an upset by winning a decision after ten rounds over the favored and more experienced Burley in an exciting fight. It was the first time that Charles had fought in the Pittsburgh area. In the rematch a month later at Hickey Park in Millvale, Charles won a ten-round decision over Burley in a more decisive manner. But the rematch proved to be boring largely because Burley was clinching on a constant basis in an apparent attempt to go the distance. Unlike Burley, Charles became a popular fighter in Pittsburgh during his career.

I wrote about Charles' bouts with Burley because Burley was a small middleweight at best both times. In addition, Burley was a great and experienced fighter in 1942. Despite being only a small middleweight at best, Burley usually weighed about five to ten pounds more than Robinson during the early part of 1942. If Burley lost to Charles twice. how could one expect Robinson, an even lighter boxer, to fight Charles? It doesn't make any sense.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Fair enough