Battle of the Williams, Carl The Truth Williams vs Cleveland Big Cat Williams.

Trouble with this statement is that while Big Cat may win unless The Truth is careful, he was the smaller man.
6'4" 85" reach a fit 218 vs. Tyson.

 

Weaver was the smaller man by a larger margin. Cleve is at least 6-2 or 6-3. His lefthand was kinda sharp, quick. That is how you end up with a name like BigCat. Being agile, quick with coordination.

 

Cleveland is not a crude as some people thought he turned out to be. Lost a SD against the very good Ernie Terrell and controversially losing to Machen who some people thought he won. Bruh, Cleve knocks him out in 3. Dejavu of the Weaver and Tyson fight

 

Huh? I & the original poster did not mention Weaver, just that The Truth is bigger than The Big Cat.
I know why he got his nickname.
Although I do not know if the gap between Weaver & him was smaller.
Taking the lowest height for a fighter makes sense0if so then Weaver was 1" shorter than him.
Plus weighed about the same in the ring.

Also the discrepancy in wingspan is only 2", while The Truth had a 5" advantage over your man.

Also Weaver ha low body fat, listed as a 32" waist-which is one reason he was described as even more muscular than he was, definition.
So for their heights & body fat levels, if anything Weaver carried slightly more muscle.

The Big Cat was only a bit taller & longer than "Hercules".
They were very close in size.

 

Williams was taller than his billed 6'2". He looked about the same height as Ali even after the shooting (which very possibly shrunk his height a little).

 

Cleveland and The Truth are also close in size.
The gap in speed can't be disputed. Cleveland Williams was quicker and more athletic than Mike Weaver only needed one punch to essentially end the fight. Carl was a fine boxer I just don't see him overcoming that vulnerability to lefthooks against one of the most powerful fighters on history who happened to have most powerful left.

 

I agree, Williams was more like 6’2 1/2” at the least. I also think his reach was more like 82”, which it was listed as on some occasions.

Though Liston appeared to have the edge in reach it wasn’t anything notable. Williams was a very big guy naturally, further dressed in both inherent genetic and naturally acquired muscle atop that - he also had oversized fists himself - about 14” - which is just shy of the 14”-14 1/2” Liston used to be listed as prior to the Patterson fights.

If Cleve was to have stood beside Ken Norton, no slouch in physique himself, I think some people might be surprised that Ken, IMO, would look somewhat smaller in terms of overall size - and that’s also factoring in Williams’ incredible shoulder width.

 

Williams resume is thin of wins but Williams had a bit of a glass jaw. Money is on Williams, Cleveland that is but I would not bet a dollar on it rather I pay a few to see it.

 

Eh likely 6'2".5, if you believe the reports of Ali (including his words in a clip with Clint Eastwood) being only 6'2" are also understated.
He was close to The Truth on overall size, but less in every dimension. Even if his wingspan was really 82", although these things being under billed is unusual.

 

I do not think we can know with any confidence his wingspan-or Liston's.
Who if he was as often listed at 84" would literally have the largest "ape factor" ever recorded (difference between haight &
Edging out this guy, even if he was "only" 6' 8" rather than the 6'9" often recorded-very possible since B-Ball heights are often overstated/more like in sneakers. [url]https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=beejay+anya[/url]

Liston was listed ~ 79" too. Who know-he did have the ingredients of a huge wingspan relative to height-very long arms, massive/lomg hands (fists also listed as high as 15")-& what folks forget goes into it, a wide chest. Muscularity irrelevant, but how wide across such as distance between the clavicles.

But if he had a fully 7' reach at .5" over 6', that would likely be literally the longest discrepancy ever recorded.
Even Manute Bol at an 8' 6" wingspan "only" had an 11" ape factor. Although if accurate likely the relatively longest arms *& near the absolutely longest in human history) since he had a narrow chest.


But unless we have reliable evidence in who & how someone was measured, how do we distinguish really lng from extremely long?
And it is even harder to approximate than height between people.

Here is some interesting details about the haunted, self-destructive existence of The Big Cat.
[url]https://hannibalboxing.com/brief-lives-cleveland-williams/[/url]

 

We can only know their wingspan’s as much as we know anyone else against whom we are comparing them - based on listings and what we can see with our own eyes.

Before even knowing a fig. for Liston’s reach, it’s very obvious that his arms were disproportionately long (significantly) relative to his height. Likewise Williams but not as appreciable.

Liston’s reach was likely between 82 1/2” to 84”, listed more often as the latter but on occasion recorded as the former. Personally, the lowest I’ve seen him recorded was 80 1/2” v Martin - I think he was def. being short falled there.

Shoulder width obviously factors but looking closely, Williams was broader than Sonny and Ali was arguably equal if not broader also.

At least we had Ali and Wilt measured on television - Ali 78” and Wilt 92”. However, if you listen carefully, after Dundee says 78”, he then says 79” as if to adjust his orig. pin point on the tape - ultimately they put up 78” on the screen for Ali.

 

But it is not just what is listed, it is what we know about the plausibility of the listings.
Under what circumstances, who measured, etc-usually we know little about it.
But for something like Ali & Wilt measured on TV, even then we have to trust the measurements they quoted-we did not see where the tape fell.
However in that case we can surmise Wilt was shortchanged. Because he put his arms both high & hyper-extended backwards.
That will not show the true extent of his enormous wingspan. Although Ali mistakenly quoted 102" there, it had to be at least a little over 7' 8".

In an interminable thread about the subject here-like elsehwere on the Internet re: celebrity heights-you can see Liston was listed in the late 70's too.
I will correct something I said last time-if Sonny had a 7' wingspan, that would be "only" an 11.5" ape factor-still barely ekeing out #2 I have ever seen all time. And 11" itself seems exceedingly rare.

My point stands that we cannot tell if Liston was nearly 80" or 84".
Both are very to exceedingly long ape factors.

Was Williams broader than Liston? I am unsure, maybe. But Liston was thicker-which does not look as long.
Just like Max Baer was very broad, but if the height of Buddy, or as thick as many modern HWs with muscle, he would not look as wide.

I would LOVE for Liston to have been 84". And unlike many others I do not say it is implausible.
But given the looseness of many measurements & different numbers for him, I trust it less than someone measured more recently for B-Ball, #1 ape factor of all time, Beejay Anya.

 

No, it isn’t just what is listed - as I said it, it is also what you can also see with your own eyes. There’s abstract plausibility and visually supported plausibility.

As far an official measurement goes, unless you measure the fighter yourself, third party determination is as good as it gets - and that’s what we deal with 100% of the time - you could turf all the listings out if we base it on knowing little about how it was done.

If they listed Marciano 84” and Liston “67, suffice to say I wouldn’t be buying it though it’s amusing to imagine the arm switch in one’s mind’s eye.

I see Wilt’s wingspan is listed 92” (7’8”) more often than not - unless that’s simply replication of the television measurement - likewise, Ali is mainly listed 78” - in agreement with the television measurement also - when Ali signed to fight Liston his reach was notably jumped up to 82”, prior to that Ali was listed at 79” to 80”.

I had quick peek at the Ali- Wilt clip again, seriously, Ali won’t shut up through out - have to listen carefully for both measurements - for Ali, Dundee says 78 1/2” then 79”, for Chamberlain he says 91” and then 92”.

The way the tape is held in some measurements can incorrectly include some degree of the chest/back, curving the tape. I think the method applied for Ali and Wilt’s measurements appeared reasonably okay.

The most accurate way to measure tip to tip reach would be to stand back to a wall, arms out to the sides, parallel with floor and then mark where the tips reach on the wall and measure the distance between.

 

If you meant that late 70's for Liston's wingspan was not listed, I am pretty sure you are wrong.
You can Google Wingspan & see the thread for Liston-there was no debate about that lower # being claimed.
That is not saying either it is likely as common as 80" +, or that I know what his measurement is.

Again I affirm all we have is what is claimed-but some claims may be sussed out as more plausible, due to circumstances, how & who measured, motivations for exaggeration:
And often we have no reasonable way to know what is more likely.

One example of this is Liston at barely over 6': we know he had a large "ape factor".
But we do not have any decent reason to believe just from visual evidence if around 80" or slightly over is less realistic than 84".
Or know if 80" or 82" is more plausible.
Even the folks he is compared to we are unsure of-& no on camera measurements, or any indication of the circumstances of his being measured that I am aware of!

In fact, IF you are correct that others who are close in size have larger width across the shoulders.-& if Williams & say Maz Baer do, it must not be near vanishingly or even very rare...
All we can say is a full 7' becomes increasingly implausible.
Just because how is it likely that someone can have what seems to me the second highest ape factor anyone can find WITHOUT having outlier-not just pretty large-dimensions in all of the facest that wingspan consists of?

The Wilt measurement I recall not tracing/being against his body. If it was, then that extra distance due to his arms being held up & hyper-extended would overstate wingspan.
If it was going tip to ti[ but not following the borders of his body, that would understate it.

Your description of Ali's numbers sounds...Sound.
Your ideal method of calculating wingspan also does.
But if witnesses & ideally video showed it done properly without a wall & nothing shifting when each side is measured, best with 2 folks, that would also be perfectly fine.

Oh how I wish Liston would be 84"!
And the Great White Whale would be someone over Beejay Anya.
Who was at least 12", & due to height so often overstated in B-Ball likely 13" in wingspan.
Nobody else was more than 11" rare, unless Liston was 11.5".

In fact someone should find & measure him now to confirm!

 

Me, wrong? Never!

No, I said the “lowest I’ve read/seen…”which allows for it being possible since you said you saw Liston thusly listed - now produce the evidence or I will then have to proclaim you WRONG! And of course I stand by all my points re plausibilities. LOL.

I know what you mean wishing that Liston did have an 84” reach, notwithstanding whatever his true reach was. I also like the 15” to 15 1/2” fist but 14” to 14 1/2” was more likely true - still massive. We needs Sonny to be super human - very cool.

Of course Sonny was 60 years old (should’ve been renamed Olddy) when he first fought Ali - sorry, no correspondence entered into on that irrefutable point - irrefutable meaning I’m not listening to any refutations, even if logical.

I actually watched Sonny sparring with Terrell to try and gage for a comparison. Ernie was 6’6”, listed reach 82”. Seems fair, at least not exaggerated, since it is “only” a 4” pull on his height.

Tbh, Liston’s arms did appear to be at the very least as long and it was more than possible that Sonny had the edge. From what I recall of the Ali- Terrell fight, Ernie did appear a bit better reached than Ali - so that all seems to correlate nicely.

The only problem would be IF all fighters exaggerated their reach in somewhat equal proportions - which, like height, can happen. As an e.g. - most 5’11” claiming 6’, most 6’ claiming 6’1”’etc. - false but side by side their claims will seem to hold in relative terms. Reach wise, a claimed 84” might be a real 82” and a claimed 82” might be a real 80” etc.

Locate and exhume Sonny for measurement? I don’t know that “someone” else should do it - since we’re they’re ones sweating on it - do you have a shovel, tape measure and a torch - preferably an actual scary flame one like in Frankenstein? (this all has to be done under the cover of night, of course).

We will meet at the stroke of midnight to carry out the diabolical task - (cue lightning, thunder and horses rearing and neighing).