Battle of the Williams, Carl The Truth Williams vs Cleveland Big Cat Williams.

Ha ha very good on all points!

Yes you did say the lowest you have seen-I thought you were insisting 80" as the mininum but you have an out there.
While the Terrell case is good logic as long as the uncertainty is admitted (such as if he was 82"), you could add a couple points in support.
Liston was at least as broad across.
His hand length, invisible in his gloves, likely was greater. You have seen Liston's [url]fingers[/url]?

Yes let's exhume the corpse, after it is well planned so we can get forensics to solve the greater mystery of Sonny's death.
And perhaps we can simultaneously reveal evidence of how long he lived-by tracing beyond photographic & eye witness testimony & radiocarbon date back to say, roughly, Og son of Gog times.
Homo Sapiens extend to at least ~ 300,000 years back, so...Maybe 285K-ish?

I have never been to Las Vegas anyway, have a good frienemy there, & can bring bushels of [url]quarters[/url].

We just need to remember to compensate for the loss of flesh on the bones.
Fingertips on the living extend beyond the skeleton.

 

This. Truth gets pulverized. If Weaver could do it, Williams most certainly would.

 

I have an “out”? Lucky me. LOL. No, I have a “correct”. Ha.

Where’s the source for the 79” or late 70” claim for Sonny? I can’t give you an “out” for non-provision.

Liston’s hands in isolation were actually well proportioned, piano playing potential - meaning, not ham fists or hands only good for punching people - just oversized completely, freaking huge overall, including the palm and top side.

I know a guy in Vegas, Gil Grissom. Very strange, borderline autistic - he did retire but I believe he returned to forensic work - I’ll give him a call…I don’t really like to because, you know, …he’s seriously weird and he comes out with some really stupid one liners but he’s really good at his job - he doesn’t let emotions get in the way…because he more or less doesn’t have any.

Anyway, I’ll bring some coin too - and let’s try not to make a Griswold mess of the trip and forget what we’re going there for.

 

If you believed that Liston may well be in the late 70's, you were correct-although there is still no good way to distinguish whether this , 84" (the edge of plausibility & only a single man found with a longer ape index) or something in between is most likely.

I tried the search function for various numbers, but it only goes back for 6 pages.
If I finf out how to search for older posts-it was about Liston-I will tell you which people made these claims.
Someone showed how late 70's was used before I think several fights, & he was specific.

 

Whaaat?

I said the lowest reach listing for Sonny that I’ve seen is 80 1/2” for the Martin fight - of course that is an iron clad, correct statement, no ifs, buts or maybes.

I’ve not read lower but it doesn’t preclude in all possibility that Sonny might’ve been listed as 79” somewhere.

I don’t “believe”’Sonny might’ve actually been only in the late 70s” - and even if I did, the existence of a 79”‘listing, that I’ve never actually seen, wouldn’t make me necessarily correct in my “belief”, viz estimate. It would just mean that a 79” listing is out there.

Cutting to the chase. You said Liston was listed 79” too. I replied that I had only seen as low as 80 1/2” - source: Martin fight. I then simply asked for the source for the 79” listing for Liston - where you saw it. I assumed you had seen the listing yourself - am I wrong? - did you mean that you read someone else stating that Liston was listed as 79” as you seem to be stating now? No biggie, just to be clear.

I did a cursory online check since my last post - I found a boxrec forum in which one of the posters said he had magazines from the late 50s that listed Sonny as 81” and it seemed he believed that to be a true measure. Possibly. I can only relate that which I read in its due context.

Of course I can’t say flatly that Liston was listed as 81” in some boxing mags because I haven’t read that directly for myself. Some time back I did read online a scanned article from around 62/63 I think that detailed Sonny’s reach as 82 1/2. Anyway…

 

I know you do not believe Liston was listed in the late 70's-you only heard me say it & seem agnostic on the issue.
I was saying that it is rational to believe he COULD be anywhere from the late 70's to 84".
This accounts for very long arms & the typical significant uncertainty in all of these measurements.
That is why you & I cannot insist what is likely-we can only give a vague sense of what end of the spectrum may possibly be more likely.
Since an 84" would be the second longest ape index anyone can find-nobody approached my Beejay Anya likely 13"...
And you say that folks around his size like Cleveland Williams are broader between the shoulders...
It would seem that a 7' reach for a man barely over 6' is unfortunately unlikely.

Now if we can show him touching even the tops of his kneecaps without bending his legs (which I read was true for a couple of people, but I never saw any evidence of it, & even then we would have to establish they did not have a femur that was disproportionately short compared to their tibia...lower 80's seems more likely.

Again I saw the late 70's listing on this forum in a thread that I looked for by searching for various terms, including the possible wingspan numbers, but I would need to learn how to get a few pages of search results to be able to see the info that claimed Liston was listed-I believe they said repeatedly, but at any event sited at least one specific fight. I believe it was on a thread about his wingspan.

Edit: here is evidence of an urban legend about said super-long arms.
In this case their is a bizarre tale about an arm for this Irish champion preserved for a couple hundred years, & they could see it was of normal length for his height.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Donnelly_(boxer)[/url]

 

The Truth was a helluva boxer. I enjoyed his fights. His bout with Tommy Morrison is a hidden classic.

 

No, I’m Buddhist actually (jk). Let’s just say I am a Love Guru.

I’ve completely understood what you’ve been trying to say. And I didn’t say I don’t believe there might’ve been a 79”’ listing - I said I don’t believe that Liston was an actual 79”.

Agnostic is the only way to be if you can neither confirm or flatly deny something.

I think the degree of certainty or uncertainty involved here is applicable across most discussions on this site - taken to the nth degree we can say NO ONE knows anything for sure - but then we always have so called likelihoods and plausibilities to rely on - which are often no less subjective.

You could end up rationalising yourself out of any position/discussion on any matter - impractical.

So to reiterate, it seems you didn’t see the 79” listing yourself, rather you read someone who said they saw it. No dramas, I just want to clarify - we seem to be moving away from the simple request to see this listing - in its primary source form - even if not available, I still can’t say that poster B, the guy you read, didn’t in fact see it for themselves - if we got a pointer to the fight in question - for which the listing was sighted- that would help.

In the meantime I think it’s reasonable enough to discuss likelihoods based on the vision and all available listings and their frequencies - though some listings can simply be replications of a single source listing.

Yes, thanks for the link - I had read of that guy before - going in back in time it was easier to tell whoppers since there were few mechanisms and cross references to refute them and claim otherwise.

I know his height was due to an abnormality but imagine if Robert Wadlow was born into and lived at a time before photography, film and reliable medical verification etc. I would find it difficult to believe a height of 8’11.1” and put it down to a fair degree of exaggeration - history showing that otherwise provable heights having never even coming close to that height - but there he is, all near 9ft of him, with corroborating vision and medical verification to go.

Without this evidence, even in the world of gigantism, pituitary issues etc., Robert’s “alleged” height would present as an extremely unlikely proposition.

Here’s a link to a very recent article on the subject - noting Bryant Jennings at 6’3” with a claimed 84” reach - at least someone who might be used to compare to Liston - I’ll add that Jennings appears to have notably large hands - which might’ve advantaged him in old school reach measurement also.

[url]https://howtheyplay.com/individual-sports/15-Boxing-Champions-with-the-Most-Impressive-ReachArm-Span-in-History[/url]

It’s been duly noted how shoulder width comprises the old school reach measurement - as if it doesn’t at all count - but it can subject to a fighter’s stance, form, technique etc. - and it also can be negated when considering the same variables.

Addendum: Tale of the tape for Liston v Patterson, note listings for Sonny’s biceps and fists which magically grew for the fight with Ali:-

[url]http://heavyweightcollectibles.com/product/floyd-patterson-sonny-liston-photo-item-vppatt3/[/url]

Also, here’s Liston’s measurements in metric, obviously put together during his time in Sweden:- converted to imperial, reach a touch over 82 1/2” and Fist just on 14” - these seem to match another article in English that I’ve read before - so maybe they sourced those figures from same:-

[url]https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sonny liston tale of the tape&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CTlDrBYOk7xYYZX7rmBNo1iPsgIMCgIIABAAOgQIABAA&client=safari&prmd=ivn&hl=en-GB&sa=X&ved=0CBUQuIIBahcKEwjg2ZGMxrr2AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBw&biw=375&bih=548#imgrc=F6xGQAmikA_JQM[/url]

 

I never moved away from providing you that information, I keep saying that I saw it described here, what they said (the only other thing I can think of is it was introduced for at least one specific fight), & how searches for various things, like 79" & 84" to find the thread, only go back a few pages, so I cannot find it yet.
Maybe someone else can help, or if we have another Liston thread someone-maybe the guy who initially listed the lower figures-can provide the source.

I had seen that link on my own a long while ago & more recently. It is incomplete & not definitive, people like Rahman & others should make it, & Manute Bol "boxed" at +11" & 8'6" Wingspan...But if you use Jennings, Lewis & others, even if they have a 7' wingspan, you need to compensate for height (taller guys with the same wingspan will have arms that are not quite as *relatively* long),how arm thickness effects appearance, if lower leg proportions are consistent if figuring how far down their fingers can reach standing upright...

Shoulder width completely counts-for wingspan (& reach you must know is something else)-it just does not show, & might distort, the arm length.
It is true that this all concerns relative likelihoods.
And most would deny Wadlow if there was not evidence-some still do if you research it, & his wingspan was over 9' 4", with the largest hands & feel I have ever seen listed...
Which makes sense, since height like outlier ages is so often overstated.

I would say that likely Sonny was not either 79" or 84".
Since his ape factor is at least less plausible-not highly, but given what we see-at "only" 6.5".
Just like it is unlikely that it is the second best ever seen at 11.5".

Here is a page where the first listing shows a guy with a supposed +13" wingspan.
But looking at his FB page-I wrote to ask him too-it seems his arms are average length, & the listing may be off by a full foot!
So I wonder how many others are at least a little bit inflated, for whatever reason.
I focused on the lighter weights, because they were much more likely to be shorter, hence have a huge ape factor.
[url]https://www.tapology.com/search/misc/longest-reach-mixed-martial-artists[/url]

Edit: I see a couple fighters who seem to have a 10.5" ape factor, but am skeptical it is accurate. Does this guy look that long for his height? [url]https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/17088-cornelius-godfrey[/url]

And this dude? [url]https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/239701-nursultan-amanzholov[/url]

This guy would have a 12.3" ape factor-it is extremely unusual that his wingspan is listed so exactingly.
And from the photo, it looks like his arm length is ordinary, this is another case where they possibly added a full FOOT to his measurement?!
[url]https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/55885-john-walker[/url]

 

Your initial reference stated that Liston was listed at 79”. I replied with the lowest listing I’ve seen - 80 1/2” - which I can call up now via screen shot.

Via enquiry since, it’s been clarified that you read someone state same and we’re no where nearer to the prime source for a listing that was emphatically stated in the first place. Rather, we’ve moved into a world of likelihoods and plausibilities - I’d just like to see the actual listing. If I get time, I might have a quick look/see for the thread myself.

I know the separation between arm length and shoulder width - but it’s often framed as if shoulder width doesn’t count for effective reach - many citing individual arm length being a more accurate and practical gage on effective reach - that’s all my point was.

As to some denying Wadlow’s height - well, we have our Flat Earther’s still, don’t we? - never enough evidence to please everyone, is there? - I mean, it’s obvious that the Earth is flat…..Liston’s reach was really only 67”….and Robert Wadlow walked on stilts…

 

PS - I’m going with the Truth in this match up - the truth being, Carl might edge Cleve in strict boxing terms for a period of time but the Cat will eventually land the big shot(s) he’s also looking for when the opp. presents itself. Carl’s chin in complement to Cleve’s power will see Carl off and overall, possibly present as a slight come from behind victory.

If it’s by way of stoppage, immediately upon same, Carl will no doubt complain that he was fine even though he couldn’t or wouldn’t comply with any of the refs commands prior to the fight being waved off…..

 

Tbf to Carl, he looked fine after getting knocked down by Tyson.

 

I never contested what number you listed.
I responded to your post disucussing likelihoods & plausibilities.
I keep saying I cannot find the listing, need a better way to search where results go back further than a few pages-or create another thread to find similar claims.
If you have a way to find that thread please do so.

Shoulder width even standing sideways does not do much for effective reach.
But since we were just speaking about wingspan, including it all is valid.
Length of arm from shoulder to fist would be best for gauging effective boxing reach, & to fingertips for length of upper limbs.

Wadlow's height is well established, even if not quite at the level of a round earth.
People used to kink his legs to make sure he was NOT wearing stilts.

I also provided a few instances of huge ape factor claims in my last post for you to weigh in on the credibility of!

 

No…. I didn’t state or imply you contested my citing of 80 1/2” - I simply made the point that I sighted the listing from the primary source which is available. You did actually initiate the question of plausibilities and possibilities….

Anyway, back on track. No, as is obvious, since I brought it up, l disagree that shoulder width does little for effective reach. It can make some difference, even if you we were only talking as little as 1/2” extra shoulder width on each side, a sum tot of 1” extra for wingspan. Some fighters would obviously hold even more than that.

Yes, I’ve read of people testing if Wadlow’s legs were real - .appalling. One story had a kid kicking Robert’s leg, Robert replied with an innocent back hand to the kids head (innocent being relative to Robert’ size) - the kid went a** over head. Giant: 1 Kid: 0. Yay!

For those plugging for the stilt conspiracy - there are photos of Robert being examined by medicos in his boxers, legs in view, the real McCoy and super long. There are also nice images taken from space of Earth’s beautiful spherical shape - the kid that kicked Robert’s leg no doubt was, or grew up to be, a Flat Earther and then some…

Yes, I will endeavour to look at the examples you provided - and I’m sure you will duly disagree with my assessments. LOL - but that’s exactly what discussion boards are for, right? -