Battling Jim Johnson vs Jack Johnson Revisited

Forget about 1906.
What is your take on Johnson signing to fight all his trio of black challengers and the fights being cancelled by events beyond his control?

The ball is in the court of promoters to make fights come to fruition ,not boxers.
Facts?
Facts show Johnson had signed to fight Langford in early 1908 the fight to take place in February 1909 Johnson's purse to be $5,000 /£1000 . Johnson won the title in December 1908. Having won the title ,and having boxed for a pittance to do so £1.200, being 30 years old and having waited several years for his title chance,he then declared he wanted the same amount of coin to defend it as Burns had received to fight him, ie $30,000.

As Johnson saw it, he was now the champion and therefore in the driving seat.
Facts show Johnson signed to fight all three of his leading contenders when his price of $30,000 was met.
The McMahon Bros, after several lower offers, eventually agreed to pay Johnson $30,000
to defend against Jeannette in NY where Jeannette was a big favourite.

Two attempts were made to stage the fight. both were met with threats of promoters licences being pulled by the NYAC and a public statement was made by the NY Commissioner O Neill ,that it was not in the best interests of boxing to allow Johnson to fight in NY,they even banned him from giving an exhibition for charity.
Johnson signed to defend against both Langford and McVey in Sydney for H D McIntosh
but McIntosh's offer was withdrawn when public opinion, and the church turned against Johnson, due to his well publicised affairs with White women.
Again the promoter made a public statement announcing he was bowing to the wishes of the general public ,in calling off the proposed title defences .
What is your take on that?
Please explain how it is Johnson's fault those fight never happened ?

 

I think the truth of the matter is somewhere in the middle, as it usually is. Langford deserved a title shot far more than any of the other black challengers of the day. Issues outside of the ring did contribute to preventing a Johnson-Langford fight but Jack Johnson certainly could have made it easier to make the fight. I think he viewed Langford as the toughest kid on the block and because of that he was either going to get paid big bucks and fight under his terms or he could easily walk away from a tough fight. My two cents is that Johnson beats Langford more easily than most would think. I think his size, style, and strengths were all wrong for Langford.

 

Martin Burke(who was 6'3) was an elite LHW/HW. Floyd Johnson was a HW contender one of the guys Wills fought as pseudo champ.

The Fuente and Adams losses were near the end of Fultons career. Adams record was very bad but he beat Rojas and went the distance with Weinart. He was not an NPC. I don't think guys like Fuente with records far north of .500 are journeymen but it doen't really matter these fights were at the very end of Fultons career. We don't hold those sort of losses against fighters. Fulton got to that stage of his career fairly quick but some fighters decline in their early 30s like a Jimmy Young or a Ezzard Charles. It is what it is.

The draws were 6 rounders.

 

Who did Martin Burke beat to be considered elite?

 

He was ranked in Rings top 10 twice as a LHW and was the Southern LHW champion back when that was a prestigious regional title.

Wins besides Fulton include Coffey, Gains, Risko, Tony Marullo, Ermino Spalla and the aformentioned Floyd Johnson. He had draws with Weinart and Wiggins though they beat him a bunch of other times. As a 6'3 who was ranked at LHW you'd think he was a weight bully but his big wins and fights were mostly HWs.

Burke had 30 losses but over half of them were to ATG caliber fighters. Burke got KO'd by Stribling twice near the end of his career but before that he consistantly went the distance against a gauntlet that included Tunney, Miske, Loughran, Greb, Godfrey and Jeff Clark. Most of whom he fought multiple times.


Burke never fought for a HW title but if Dempsey had been active in the 23-26 period and was looking for people to fight other than Wills and Tunney Burke would have been an option.

 

Burke was never an elite fighter,nor was Johnson and their records prove it. I think you actually know this but ,for some reason do not want to admit it.
Burke lost to middleweights,and Lhvy and Hvy journeymen,that was his level.

Bottom line. Fulton was beaten by journeymen , contrary to what you said.

 

Floyd Johnson was a borderline top 10 HW in the early 1920s. When he fought Fulton he was 30-2.

Over half of Burkes 30 losses were to ATGs. Out of the 30 theres like 5 guys who weren't elite. The ironically named Legend is by far the worst fighter to beat Burke and that was the end of Burkes career.

If they were journeymen it doesn't matter it was the end of Fultons career. Everyone being discussed lost to fighters in their final few fights who'd have had no shot at beating them in their peak. No one who thinks Tyson is overrated makes their case by saying "he lost to Danny Williams and Kevin McBride".

 

"Please explain how it is Johnson's fault those fights never happened?"

I did not say that. Here is what I wrote--"criticism is fair to the extent the ball was in his court"

Racism and the color bar was overpowering at that time. If Johnson was prevented from fighting Langford because of that prejudice and for that reason, okay. (But why did the fight with Battling Johnson come off? And not Langford? I think it is reasonable to ask.)

One of your major points is that the champion can set his fee and demand it be met. This means that having financial backing trumps in ring and record qualifications. Such is the way of the world, and not only in boxing. For example, the American political system. If matters less for high office in America if a candidate is qualified than his/her financial backing. So we are ruled by folks either very rich themselves or stooges to this or that special interest, or both.

You are cool with this in boxing. Fair enough. But I think boxing historians, even armchair boxing historians, have a right to consider if the champion defended against his best challengers. Take my Schmeling hypothetical, for example. If Max set a $1 million fee and Joe Louis couldn't meet it, but let's say Jack Roper could (plausible--he had rich Hollywood friends) and so Schmeling defends against Roper, it is valid for a modern critic to judge this type of defense and find it wanting, and rate down Schmeling accordingly.

 

Up to promoters to make fihts but Johnson backed out of a signed contract with Langford when he won the title and then lied about it. He then backed out of the Australia deal but insisting $10k be forfeited to a bank of his choice in America knowing that demand would not be met. When he agreed to fight Jeannette in NY he knew the fight could not be made there. It was a hallow gesture. Johnson never made a serious attempt at fighting them while champion and he even said as much multiple times.

 

I found this, it doesn’t seem plausible someone is making this exhibition up. Good chance Fulton did put him down. He supposedly had a fight lined up with Willard in 2016 but promoters said Fulton couldn’t draw attendance and it was called off.

https://www.postbulletin.com/community/rochester-plasterer-fought-his-way-to-national-fame

 

I was looking at the local day after reports. The exhibition took place but Willard didnt get knocked down.

 

Thanks for this. I'll have to check out Jack Johnson The Reign.

 

The problem with this is Burke was losing to journemen when he was in his prime and earlier.
Wiggins x3 when he was 26
Herman when he was 28
Slade when he was 26
Foley when he was 25
O'Hare when he was 21
Martin when he was 21
Denny 155lbs when he was 24
Drew with Denny 144lbs when he was 24 .
Risko was a 7 fight novice.
Drop this, it denigrates the rest of your content.

 

Not strictly true.Johnson signed to fight Langford in London for $1000/$5000 at the NSC this was in early1908 before he was champion,He won the title in December 1908.
InJanuary,now champion, he informed the NSC that as champion he now wanted the same purse as Burns had received to defend against him ie $30,000, Peggy Bettinson the manager and promoter for the NSC refused to offer anything like that and Johnson told him to go **** in his hat.
"The offer of the Club was absolutely ridiculous.Being Champion,I don't see how the National Sporting Club has a right to dictate to me as to how much I will receive for my appearance and boxing ability.If they don't want to give me my price,which is 6000 pounds
win, lose, or draw,they can call things off.I am a boxing man and can now get my price,and I don't care what the public thinks"
He didn't back out of the Australia deal ,and McIntosh gave the reasons the fights did not happen.
Both Johnson and Jeannette posted cash bonds to fight in NY and both were there in training.

Now
1. Why would Johnson do all this if he knew the fights would not happen?
2.How would Johnson know the fights would not be allowed to take place when the promoters did not?Johnson had fought Jeannette in New York on the 16th of Jan 1906,and the commision had raised no objections!
3.If what you say is true and Johnson somehow had inner knowledge that 2 of the premier promoters did not,how come Jeannette made a public statement saying he absolved Johnson from any blame that the fight did not happen?

Your post reads as from someone eager to attach blame to Johnson for these fights not happening, including dismissing verified facts.In that it is remarkably similar to others I have read,and I suspect posted with the same motive.

 

Well the ball is in the court of promoters as far as making fight is concerned not boxers.
So, lets examine which promoters were prepared to meet Johnson's asking price of $30,000 for a title defence
The premier promoters of Johnson's time were:
Sunny Jim Coffroth.
The McMahon Bros forerunners of the wrestling dynasty.
Tex Rickard
Jim Curley
Hugh D McIntosh
Coffroth,Rickard ,and Curley, all stated there was no money in promoting an all black heavyweight title fight.Coffroth and Rickard said so in terms that could result in a ban if I typed them here.

The McMahon's ,knowing Jeannette was a favourite in NY [he fought there over 20 times,]Johnson only once in1906 thought a title fight between Johnson and Joe would be a viable proposition and offered Johnson $20,000 ,Jack turned it down,they upped it to $25,000,again Johnson said no, they went to $30,000 and he said yes.
McIntosh,also after several offers finally got Johnson to agree to fight both Langford and McVey.
Name another promoter who was willing to put up $30,000 for a Johnson title fight with a black challenger ?
Boxing is a business and boxers fight for money,not so a lot of anoraks can talk about them on computers nearly a century later.
Johnson was getting his price for defending against White Dopes like Flynn in the US.
Would he be breaking his neck to fight appreciably more dangerous black opponents in foreign countries for less money,where foreign promoters like Theodore Vienne who disliked him personally , wanted to dictate the number of rounds he would fight?
Would You?

If Usyk was offered 5M to defend against Fabio Wardley , but only 1M to defend against Parker or Kabayel ?
Which would he choose?
Which should he choose?
Which would you choose?