Behold your false god, Roberto Duran

He beat Felix Trinidad, Ike Quartey, and Pernell Whitaker. All 3 were levels above Cotto at 147lb.

 

Note the word "convincingly" in my post.

 

Yes it was. Bonavena was surging in under Ali's arms with awkward and unpredictable head movement, and persisted with a high work-rate throughout. Chuvalo spent all of but the first few rounds plodding forward blocking punches with his face, gamely absorbing punishment but never offering much consistent work in return.

Well, that was his first fight back. It was always going to take a while for three years' worth of rust to fall off.

 

Chuvalo connected consistently with body shots more than any other opponent, including Bonavena, pre-Frazier. Also Ali's own workrate was vastly superior against Chuvalo compared to Bonavena.

One should also tak into account that Ali was in excellent shape for both Bonavena and Frazier, which he wasn't for Chuvalo. Still I think his superior speed and workrate in 1966 is there to se plainly, with any possible adjustments made for the difference in opposition (for the record, I don't think Bonavena is better than Chuvalo - just different).

 

I think DLH beats Pac at 140, and maybe edges him out competitively at 147 during his prime. Just not a great matchup for Pac.

 

So...? Like I said, he was a punching bag on legs after the opening sessions (though admittedly I haven't watched the fight in a long time). I might have another look at all these fights when I get a chance.

Bonavena isn't better than Chuvalo?

 

Duran fans turn Duran in his early 30s into an old broken down man, yet he fought another 16 years after Hearns and 35 more fights. Fact is Duran fought at 154 before all Hearns or Benitez or Leonard did. He is given credit when he beats Moore and Barkley but excuses when he loses to the greats. That way of logic is ridiculous. Duran is said to be washed up exactly when he lost to Ray in New Orleans.
I am not ignoring his reign, but can you tell me he beat anyone of the Hearns,Leonard,Benitez caliber at lightweight? Not even close. He dominated a rather weak division. Duran lost to Leonard and Benitez because he was too slow, and against Benitez he had Wilfred right in front of him at 154 pounds and Wilfred was countering beautifully and easily. I think Duran is overrated and I have been consistent on this. He never knocked out a great fighter, and for a guy to be considered so great I think he should have had one or two or maybe a few knockouts over greats. His lightweight reign does not warrant top 5 or even top 20 atg for Duran. So what does?

 

This is the theory about Duran or way to look at him for Duran fans. He beat Barkley so he is great, but 7 years before when he lost to Benitez easily at 154 and a lower weight class he was washed up at the young age of 30. He lost to a great in Benitez and he lost easily. Duran always was the King of Excuses. What makes me think Duran is overrated is that he lost to all the greats. Had he just beaten Benitez and Hearns, but he lost when he fought the best, and won when he fought mediocre. Does anyone really think Duran with his plodding style was going to beat Hearns in 1984 with Tommy's speed and power?

 

At first glance, it well might seem that Duran lost to all the best fighters he ever faced and to some degree, that is a fact. Hearns, Hagler, Leonard, and Benitez all enjoyed victories over the man they call the Hands of Stone. However, the man we're talking about made his bones as a Lightweight, and was pretty much past his physical peak by the time he was defeating much larger, world champions.

Pacquiao is getting an immense amount of credit currently for moving up through the divisions and...sorry...gotta go to the pub and then watch Toy Story 3...let this continue.

 

So we can't give Ray Robinson credit for all the astonishing wins he achieved while completely washed-up compared to his younger self without tearing his legacy to **** for inconsistency and losses at that age?

 

Good point. If Montreal was Duran's "Valentine's massacre" what would you compare his losses to Laing, Benitez, Hearns and Hagler to in Robinson's career?

 

Robinson doesn't have anything quite as embarassing as Laing to my knowledge, but the losses to Fullmer, Basilio and Pender (all of whom were lesser fighters than Hearns and Hagler) might be considered.

Obviously I'm not comparing Duran to Sugar Ray Robinson; but MAG asserted that one can't give a man credit for wins past his prime without attacking him for the losses he sustained in the same period, which is clearly absurd.

 

Yeah. I think it was a pretty good way to give it some perspective.

 

There's huge difference between struggling and not looking good (Or your best). He looked no where near the same against Quarry than he did against Folley.

The above statements make complete sense. Ali was a fighting man by this stage, and his physical digression in a year or two time (if existent) wasn't enough from him to be worse considering his improved sharpness. A lot of the fights certainly show that point to me.

Lastly, I would like to awe over how terrific, fast, and sharp Ali looks in the second Frazier fight, AND the Rumble in the Jungle (Even considering the strategy). His speed, sharpness, were truly great... his stamina was never going to be the same at that point but he was great.

Just ask yourself how declined more from FOTC to Frazier Ali II. Frazier or Ali? The arguments that Ali is on the same level or even better aren't preposterous considering how fluid Ali looks especially next to Frazier he's about a half-step behind his form from FOTC (And almost 10 pounds heavier).

Want to know preposterous... those that think Frazier own the second fight.

 

Terrific post. I'm in complete agreement. The problem really becomes that it's wrong or takes away from Frazier to speculate that a 67 Ali beats him. Why? Everybody recognized Ali wasn't quite the same. For a fighter that relied so heavily on his speed, sharpness, and reflexes you'd know that he wouldn't be the same.

Ali was a fighting champion that fought a lot during pre-exile. It's not wrong for most to think Tyson of 91 beats Holyfield. But Ali over Frazier is.

Frazier fans most be the only fans to have labeled an undefeated HW champion as actual being shot. I've heard it before, and not just once.