Benny Leonard #1?

HCP, Duran was a great fighter, but this reasoning you post, get's me frustrated. Out of the 212 fights that Benny Leonard FOUGHT, you base your opinion on seeing just ONE film of the great Benny Leonard against one of the toughest southpaws the LWs ever produced in Lew Tendler...
You never get to see Leonard flattening any of his 69 victims such as
Freddie Welsh, Johnny Kilbane, Charley White [a great southpaw left hooker],Ever Hammer, Richie Mitchell, Rocky Kansas [a bull] , beat the great welterweight champ, Jack Britton, Britain's great welterweight Ted Kid Lewis, etc.. It is like 100 years from now ,boxing fans can only observe
Ray Robinson against Marty Servo, Randy Turpin #1,and base THEIR opinion of the best fighter I ever saw ringside on 2 films of SRR out of
202 bouts that he fought...Or to base Roberto Duran's considerable talent
on only one bout to be seen 100 years from now on the NO MAS fight.
I on the other hand have read so much on the great career of Benny Leonard who COMPLETELY ruled the LW division for 7 years, koing great 135 pound HOFs, take all this in consideration in picking him over Duran whose deserved reputation was what he did over the lightweight division ...
He might have defeated Benny Leonard, but based on solely what both fighters accomplished as lightweights , I make Leonard the favorite ..:hi:

 

burt, you're basing your opinion on the fight by just seeing one film of benny leonard. just messing with you. in my opinion you could put leonard, duran or whitaker at the top of the all-time 135 list and and it's hard to argue. that said, i think ike williams h2h could give all of them hell. so underrated.

 

True, we can NEVER KNOW who would've beaten who, amongst great LWs of different era's, but I AM CONVINCED there are exceptions . The Ray Robinson I saw at his welterweight best, was the best at 147 pounds across any era, and what I have studied over the years about Benny Leonard, who for SEVEN years ruled the lightweight division over great HOFers ,and was considered by his peers and writers of boxing as good a lightweight as Ray Robinson was as a welterweight. Leonard was for seven years UNBEATABLE as a lightweight, whilst beating every great contender
time and again. Duran great as he was did NOT beat an assortment of great lightweights of his time and started to gain weight, morphing into a welterweight...Maybe he could have beaten Benny Leonard, who outclassed great lightweights, but I doubt it...But on a H2H basis Duran was the best lightweight I saw since Ike Williams...Ike was taller, had reach, a murderous puncher who PROVED himself as a great lightweight against
such great lightweights as Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott,
and the "hawk" Kid Gavilan. I saw these toughies who each had over 100 fights, and Duran never had this type lightweight opposition to prove himself...Duran I loved as a throwback to a young vicious heavyweight Jack Dempsey, snarl and all...

 

I got a kick out of how you compared Duran to the young Dempsey, snarl and all! Well said. I'm a little suprised these days that Joe Gans doesn't get placed right up there for the number 1 consideration. Fleisher thought the world of Benny (he wrote he book Leonard the magnificent) but still rated Gans above him.

 

t, I purposely refrained from mentioning Joe Gans ,whom Nat Fleischer had #1 to Benny Leonard #2, because Gans fought in the beginning of the 1900s, and we are considering "modern boxing". In fact Nat Fleischer has Terry McGovern #1 featherweight, followed by the great warrior Abe Attell #2. And remember Fleischer saw FW Henry Armstrong, Johnny Dundee, and
some fair boxer named Willie Pep, amongst other 126 pounders...I call modern era from about 1915 on or so...

 

Ok, that does clarify things. Burt I wanted to ask you if your father saw Joe or maybe Abe? I'm guessing they were from abit too early though.

 

No,T, my dad who boxed in smokers ,but was old enough to see Abe Attell or the Old Master Joe Gans , did see Benny Leonard before Leonard became LW champion...Leonard was called "the great Bennah " in his prime. BUT we BOTH saw Abe Attell ...Not when he was fighting of course ,but Abe Attell owned a bar on upper Bwy, and in his window was a large photo of Attell and the 12 pound heavier Harlem Tommy Murphy, both drowning in blood in their fight. And I once saw Attell standing in his bar through the front window. One other thing I will never forget about Abe Attell. When tv first came out, we would watch Attell as a spectator throwing punches, blocking blows, dodging blows, as if he was still fighting...He was in his sixties by then, but to watch this old codger in the audience was a lot of fun...

 

P.S. of course I meant my dad was NOT old enough to see Abe Attell fight....sorry...

 

There can be no definitive argument regarding the superior fighter, head to head, here. Both were in the very top echelon, and must merely be enjoyed on the film remaining, tho I think I have every fight of Duran on film since Buchanan.

That said, and to be contentious to an earlier post, Duran shows much more skill and discipline, at his peak, than Dempsey. Snarls make good theatre, but footwork, balance and a cold heart make better fighters.

 

You cannot compare what a heavyweight can do against a lightweight...If Roberto Duran weighed in as a heavyweight ,he would never have those
panther like movements displaying such quickness were he to have weighed 70 pounds more....Impossible for a larger man to be as quick in movements as a lightweight. The laws of nature doesn't allow that.
That is why we don't have great 200 pounds ballet dancers...But of all the heavyweights , Jack Dempsey when YOUNG had the best blend of speed movements mixed with great power...Prime Dempsey and the later snarling
lithe, Duran mirrored each other...Dempsey HAD discipline , whenever he needed it, but he was pure and simply a killer at heart in temperament, ala
a much smaller Roberto Duran...

 

Benny and Roberto would have been a marvelous fight.

 

I don't think anyone would argue with you about Duran having more skill them Dempsey, but I have found no fault in his footwork, balance, or cold heart.

 

Benny Leonard is one of the greatest ever to lace up a pair of boxing gloves regardless of weight division. There is no valid arguement against his greatness, talent, smarts and he proved it over a 8 years period as champion of the world.

Im also convinced that he was sooo good he couldve won that Welterweight belt if he didnt have to do "buisness" that day. There`s no doubt in my mind.

Duran is also one of the elite. His skills were obvious. His power and speed not mention a slippery defense.

It appears to me that Leonard has the style and tools that would give Duran the most problems. Tough fight.

 

Well said ! It is not understood today that Benny Leonard was about to challenge the powerful Toy Bulldog for the Welterweight title, so much he cleaned out the lightweight division of his time , but his mother beseeched
Leonard not to fight anymore and Benny Leonard retired undefeated in 1925...My dad used to tell me that when Benny Leonard used to spar with someone at the gym, EVERY BOXER, would stop whatever they were doing
to watch the great Benny Leonard...Nat Fleischer, Ruby Goldstein, used to say that a Barney Ross, Armstrong, Ambers, McClarnin, Canzoneri, were mere second rate fighters compared with Benny Leonard...At a boxing seminar In New Hampshire ,Ruby Goldstein who was once considered the next Benny Leonard, told the audience [me included], "in reply to a question,
"please don't compare anyone of us to Benny Leonard ". Bennah was
THAT GREAT a lightweight...