Benny Leonard as the greatest lightweight of all time: still true?

Parcel picked leonard over duran. Id say gans was one percent better or maybe more. Gans went forty rounds, could in fight very well and knock your brains out from one to thirty rounds

 

Of course you could still argue that Leonard rates above Duran. Duran usually seems to come out ahead for some because they believe he was the better fighter, which is fair. He did have greater multi-weight success. However when you stick strictly to credentials at lightweight, Leonard has a far better resume. He fought many more Hall of Famers and contenders. Also, people love to bring up Duran's mark of 72-1 before losing to Leonard in the rematch, but if you look at Leonard's run after his newspaper decision loss to Dundee in 1916, he went 94-2-1 before retiring in 1924. None of the losses, nor the draw, came at lightweight.

 

Benny Gans or Duran, I wouldn’t argue with any of them as top dog of lightweight

 

Leonard > Gans > Duran

 

This top three is about as good as the top three in any division. Welterweight is probably a bit better but that's about it.

 

Numero uno.

 

Jeremiah presser I first read your thoughts on Durans resume on facebook,always knew what you were talking about then and If I had to cast aside popular myths and do research (I ended up doing that) durans resume doesnt compete with Leonards at lightweight (how many hall of famers did Leonard defeat multiple times in that run compared to Durans run.

 

If you read Donald K Fried's " Corner Men ", you'll learn that Arcel worked with Benny from his very earliest days. Right back to the move from Krupp's to Stillman's gyms.
In many ways, Leonard taught Arcel.
You're absolutely right in that Ray was in charge in the corner in Leonard's comeback.

 

Manny Seamon. Great to see him name checked. Wonderful trainer.

 

Arcel was 17 years old when Leonard ko'd Freddie Welsh to win the title.Doc Robb was Leonard' s head trainer in his lightweight career.Mannie Seamon was his assistant ,coming on board at the age of 20 and working with then Champion Leonard for 8 years.
When Leonard turned pro in1912 ,Arcel was11 years old.
This is from a compilation book called," The Hurt Business" highly recommended.
Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown are talking with Leonard Gardner in all night restaurant after Duran had just beaten Ray Leonard.".Arcel was asked if Duran was the greatest fighter he had ever trained.For awhile he didn't answer ,as if unwilling his devotion to the legendary Benny Leonard,whom he considered the greatest lightweight he had ever seen.But then the past seemed to give up its hold on him.He was tired,and he told me Leonard was all used up by the time he had worked with him.At last ,[in answer to the question,] Arcel said ,""Yes,and a moment later added Duran is the best fighter in the world . "

 

I think there's just a few too many question marks around Gans for me to be entirely comfortable putting him at the top.

The Britt fight is the big one, I don't find the stories of it being fixed convincing at all, and while Gans did win, he was getting massacred before the DQ.

I think the McGovern loss was probably a fix, but there's enough doubt to also make me uncomfortable.

I do think beating Welsh is a better win than any Gans has too.

 

If we're going to blame Gans' losses on brutal weight making, does that also not raise the question of him also having an unfair size advantage over many opponents when he managed to make weight successfully?

I think it's probably fair to say Britt had gone backwards for their second too. I don't know if he lost focus, or if his amateur career had left him a lot more shopworn than his pro career suggests. Before the rematch Britt was knocked out by Nelson, and probably got the worse of a fight with a completely out of shape Terry McGovern. Plus Britt also injured his wrist.

The DQ was absolutely the only call that could be made, but Britt was all over Gans, he was not coming back into the fight. Gans was being battered around the ring in the third, In the 4th round Gans was knocked down, then went down twice more (either being shoved down or choosing to go down to avoid punishment). Britt accused Gans of going down to avoid punishment, and one of the next day reports implies Gans was intentionally trying to get hit while down to avoid punishment.

I think the fight is a bit like Bowe Golota.

 

In general, no, but I think it does at this level.

It was basicaly the unanimous opinion of those that saw the fight, that Gans was on the way out.

He was certainly in a far far worse state than Corbett was against Sharkey, for example.