Benny Leonard calls Primo Carnera's defense "Marvelous"

You don't see that as damaging? Well ,I suppose it depends on your opinion on what constitutes the word!
Going to take the dogs out for their exercise now,it will give you a chance to lick your wounds.




ps Zero.

 

I have never used the word great myself, though others might be using it in a different context.

Even just by acknowledging that he was better than Cooney, you would be acknowledging that he was legitimately world class.

 

It is only damaging in the sense that it is the criticisms that even his staunchest supporters acknowledge.

Nobody disputes that he was carefully managed, or that his career was mired in controversy.

Where we differ is in terms of how much of the controversy was justified.

 

Can we, at least, all agree that Primo Carnera's defense was NOT "Marvelous"?

 

I would estimate that 86.6% was justified!

 

Dempsey refereed Carnera several times. He never saw anything suspicious about him and insisted everything was genuine and on the level.

Rez posted the Jeffries link.

Perry posted the Arcel Quote.

I posted the Schmeling, Gains and sharkey quotes.

Lots of us are finding real endorsements for Carnera. But you guys prefer sensationalist 1930s journalism to testament of fight people. It's entirely up to you though what is more powerful champions, trainers or Galico etc.

 

Google "argument ad populum".

 

Not his wins over real contenders though. What do you make of this report?

"Primo made good use of his long left jab, keeping it regularly in his opponents face and racking up points. Even so Neusel made his best showing in the first round. He rushed at Carnera with the opening bell and the force of the attack completely surprised the ex champion. Early in the round Neusel landed a barrage of combination punches to Carneras head and shook the massive Italian who pawed futilely and pawed ineffectively at his opponent. As the round wore on, however, Primo regained composure and began pummelling Neusel with left and rights to the head and body in what was to become a rout.


The second round was even for the first minute. Neusel started fast, but soon began missing as Primo ducked and weaved. An uneffected and smiling Carnera began landing unanswered blows. Two quick rights snapped Neusels head back, staggering the German to the ropes. He spent the rest of the round trying to avoid Carneras blows by going into the clinch.


Neusel again rushed Carnera as the third stanza began. He landed a quick left and right to Primos body, but this time Carnera countered with a hard left and right to Neusels face. For the rest of the round Carnera landed punishing combinations with minimal response from his opponent. By the end of the session Neusel, who was now clearly in trouble, staggered around the ring.


In the fourth round Neusel was near exhaustion. Still game, however, he mustered what energy he had left and put it all into a hard right cross that landed high on Carneras head. The shot rocked Primo, but he quickly steadied himself and continued stalking his worn down foe. Soon afterward Primo landed a hard left hook to the head that opened a deep gash above the Germans right eye and left him clearly stunned. Still lacking the killer instinct and disinclined to hit Neusel again, Primo looked at referee Arthur Donovan in the hope that the arbiter would stop the bout. To Primos dismay, Donovan waved to the two men to continue. With his eyesight impaired by the ugly gash and the streams of blood it exuded, Neusel raised his right hand as a sign of surrender and walked to his corner. The wounded, exhausted German was declared the loser by technical knockout after two minutes and twenty three seconds of the round."

 

You seem very happy to use these quotes when they support your position, and from much less credible sources.

Do you find Riddick Bowe's defence to be "marvellous"?

 

What's the title of this thread, genius?

 

What are you basing that on all of Primos fights? You have seen enough evidence for 86% to be cast as suspect?

To be fair most challengers with 20-0 records are 86% manufactured anyway.

If you check out Janitors thread on the contenders you will see there is more than enough proof that Primo was legitimate. At the end of the day top fighters are only rated on these kind of fights anyway.

 

Again no one said better. Just more accomplished(Carnera won the title and Cooney at the time had only made it to a title SHOT both of which Arcel called a con) and more experienced.
Carnera could definitely be a low end top 10 contender in some different eras but better than Bowe? no and i dont think as highly of bowe as some people do

 

I think he said more accomplished and better boxing skill.

Also his definition of a con is obviously a soft one i.e. a carefully managed fighter as opposed to one built on malpractice.

I would say upper half of the top ten and a title fight in any era.

It took a bit of luck to make him champion in his own era (a soft draw), so it is reasonable to say that it would in others.

 

He doesnt make the top 5 in the mid 80s-mid 90s era(Tyson Tucker tubbs Witherspoon Thomas Holmes Williams Douglas Biggs Ruddock Holyfield Dokes Foreman Mercer Bruno Bonecrusher Moorer Steward bowe Lewis McCall Morrison Golota Tua Cooney etc all in a 10-15 year period)or the late 60s mid 70s(maybe top 10) but might have well gotten a title fight in any era.

 

Still waiting for these positive quotes from Dempsey and Jeffries.
3rd time of asking.
I don't acknowledge that he was was better than Cooney