Benny Leonard vs Vasyl Lomachenko primes

Benny Leonard is a handful for anyone, but so is Lomachenko. I think Loma would be more unique to a Leonard than Benny would be to Loma, however that doesn’t take away from Benny’s intellect and own skill.

He would need to use his jab very frequently in this one to disrupt Loma’s rhythm like Lopez did early on, Leonard was also a pretty underrated puncher and Loma’s not unhurt-able so it’s not impossible to see Leonard timing Loma at some point.

What I have no doubt about, is that a fight would be razor thin and close. I got Benny by decision.

 

Most here in Classic were picking Lomachenko ?

Benny Leonard was the utmost Boxer-Puncher. Lomachenko would be all over the place with his quick moves but Benny could break Loma´s pace with a few well timed double jabs.. You gotta remember, in Leonard´s days they relied on distance judgment, timing and composure, and not on high output, quickness and fitness, and blocking.
With old gloves, 15 rounds, with the judges calling close rounds even, Lomachenko has nothing on Benny Leonard.

 

Loma made Teo Lopez look like Benny Leonard.

It should go w/o saying what the actual Leonard would do to him.

 

Awful match up for Loma in the old ruleset and equipment. Leonard would dominate him at the in-fighting level, and would make sure it stays there.

Current ruleset would be a lot more interesting, however. I can't see Loma getting totally washed by anyone except absolutely stylistic nightmares (e.g. Armstrong), which Leonard isn't. He would make a good go of it even if he lost imo.

 

Boxing has advanced a great deal since the era of Leonard so while he was great for his time I think a great modern fighter who constantly takes on and beats bigger fighters like Loma would beat him. Faster, more athletic and does things that Leonard would not have much experience dealing with

 

Loma is like 17-3 and some act like he’s SRR, lol.

He was a good fighter. He does not have the resume imo of a great fighter.

Leonard was a great fighter.

Great > good.

Benny has his way. If Loma had trouble with Teo, imagine what an ATG master would do to him. Loma would look like the amateur/preliminary fighter he is.

 

You're behind on the times. His record is now a whopping 18-3.

 

Well crap, now that's quite a difference. The win over Kambosos changes it all. I'm now convinced Benny Leonard would have been flipping burgers with Galento if Loma was in his era.

 

What has advanced a great deal since the Leonard era? Leonard consistently beat the best welters of his time as well, he knows how to overcome a size disadvantage, and he certainly wasn’t just great for his time. He’s the definition of an all time fighter, and those early divisions were stacked with talent so I’m almost certain he’s faced someone like Loma or even potentially more unorthodox and fast if you look at footage of Johnny Dundee.

 

Loma is the best amateur boxers ever and does things that no one in Leonard era has ever seen. While Leonard is an all time great there's almost a 100 year difference between the two, any sport would change over 100 years that doesn't detract from how good Leonard is but in a H2H it would be hard for him to overcome the difference in terms of athleticism and techniques that were not common in his day as well as adjusting to how the rules have changed

 

Like what? Pretty much everything Lomachenko and his contemporaries do can be seen on film from the best of Leonard's era, they even had boxers that were unorthodox and fast on a similar level to Loma. Nothing about boxing fundamentals have really changed here, you can say the every sport changes over time but in reality boxing has had far far more time to develop, and has been engrained in almost every culture globally from ancient times, and this reflects on the film we see of boxing compared to other sports from the time. I don't think it's really comparable to the development of other sports.

Also, I don't see a gap in athleticism either. Johnny Dundee still looks fast as **** even when you correct the film speed, same with other fast fighters from the period like Jimmy Slattery and Pancho Villa. I don't see a significant difference in Leonard's ruleset compared to the rulesets before and after his, by the time Leonard came around the ruleset essentially became modern.

I'm not saying that Loma's intellect or ability is in doubt, I see him as a H2H threat to anyone, but Leonard's own intellect and ability needs to be taken into account here.

 

You're not considering the advancements in athleticism and size of athletes today. Modern nutrition and scientific advancements have resulted in athletes who are generally larger and more athletic than those in the past. While it's true that many of Lomachenko's techniques, such as feints and footwork, can be seen in the past, the level of mastery and way he does them is quite unique, even by today's standards and you won't find many fighters in the past who were similar let alone in Leonard's time.
Furthermore, southpaw techniques were not as developed back then; for example, the only southpaw Leonard fought was a one-handed fighter reliant on his left hand, which is a far cry from Lomachenko's diverse skill set. Lomachenko is a product of the Soviet school of boxing, a system that wasn't around during Leonard's time so it say that there were fighters like Loma in his era is just ludicrous

 

Benny Leonard there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever

 

I find the advancement of athletes as a whole to be a tad over-exaggerated when compared to the athletes of Leonard's era, in fact evidence suggests that this athletic development (AKA roids) don't have as much of an impact as you'd think.

Here's a study comparing Jesse Owens to Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson, one of which is probably the most infamous doper in Olympic history;

"One question posed had been to compare two of the best sprinters of that time, Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis, to the great Jessie Owens. Try to imagine how these three great sprinters would run around the track against each other. Of course, it could only happen in a dream or a vivid imagination. What we could accomplish biomechanically was to digitize Jessie Owens and compare his running technique against the two modern sprinters. Jesse Owens won 4 gold medals and broke the world record in the 100-meters dash in 10.20 seconds in the 1936 Berlin Olympic Games. His 100-meter dash record stood for 20 years and was broken by Willie Williams in 1956 in 10.1 seconds. The question was how Jessie Owens’ results compared to sprinters who ran the same distance in 9.90 seconds and faster. Since modern sprinters ran on artificial tracks, used starting blocks, and had access to special sprint shoes with spikes to gain better contact with the running surface, was it possible to eliminate those factors and compare the runners outside of their actual competitive environment?

Bud Greenspan, the famous producer of the series on the “Olympics Games”, was a friend of mine. One of Mr. Greenspan’s most beautiful and moving productions was “Jesse Owens Returns to Berlin” (1968). Mr. Greenspan gave me access to the original film of Jessie Owens’ Berlin Olympic performance. In my data collection, I had various Olympics and International competitions, including sprinting performances of Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis. When a sprinter runs, the movement results from the displacement of his/her rotational leg and hips segments. In addition to the hip displacements, the movement of the ankle joint is added to that of the displacement at the knee and the hip joints. When these angular displacements are calculated in their coordinated actions, the total stride length is created. Of course, the net distance is always slightly less since some motion is wasted at the surface contact, while another motion is absorbed due to the flexibility of the shock absorbing joints. Another factor is air which will resist the movement forward.

The amount of time that the runner is out of contact with the ground and the height that the center of gravity is displaced will, also, affect the result. However, the most important joints about which forces are generated to propel the body forward are those at the ankle, knee and hip. By calculating the angular velocities at these joints, it is possible to calculate the absolute velocity and compare athletes that ran at different times and under different conditions. For example, one athlete might run a hundred meters in 10.0 seconds, but another athlete running into the wind might run the same distance in 10.20 seconds. In other words, the distance covered would be the same, but external circumstances might be the factor producing the time differences. If the calculation of their speed was measured by determining the angular velocities at the joints, a comparison of the absolute speed of two people running at times, places, and under dissimilar conditions could be made.

Using the films provided by Mr. Greenspan, we applied biomechanical analysis to several of the sprints Jesse Owens ran in the Berlin Olympic competitions. Based on our calculations of his joint center kinematics (which yielded positions, velocities, and accelerations), Jessie Owens was as fast as Ben Johnson and Carl Lewis. However, these modern-day sprinters won the same 100-meter race, at faster speeds, most likely due to the environmental conditions under which they competed. Carl Lewis won the Gold medal in the 1984 Olympics in 9.99 seconds. However, Carl Lewis performed on an artificial surface with special sprint shoes. Comparing the kinematic parameters for these athletes suggests that they would have been competitively equal."

https://www.arielnet.com/chapters/show/dtdf-ch15/the-horse-connection

Also; Tendler wasn't one-handed. He frequently tries using his lead but to no avail since Leonard always has an answer for it. He knows it's pointless to try and jab or throw lead hooks with Benny, in fact Leonard pretty much neutralizes everything in Tendler's arsenal. The way he fights a Southpaw is brilliant.

I agree that Loma's and also Usyk's use of fundamentals is unique, but I still don't think it's as unique and new as you think and the same thing applies to Soviet boxing. Russian aristocratic boxing had existed for decades prior to Benny Leonard, Russian boxing as a whole having existed for far longer, and Russian fighters had been migrating to the US to find opportunities. I highly doubt Soviet boxing considerably added upon Russian aristocratic boxing and I don't think Loma would be as bewildering as you think.

Leonard, as well as many of his trainers and contemporaries, probably came in contact with a similar style numerous times, far more than later eras like Louis given the eventual Soviet ban of professional boxing, and from the film we have of Johnny Dundee we know that Leonard has faced and beaten fighters with similar attributes, speed and intelligence to Lomachenko. I don't attributes that Soviet boxing brings to the table would be new or significant here.

He'd be the best and most intelligent Southpaw Leonard fought, but given his intellect as well as being thoroughly proven in an insanely stacked and stylistically diverse era I don't think there's anything significantly unique.