Benny Leonard

S, according to the "Boxing Register" Benny Leonard Won two NDs over the great WW Jack Britton in 1917 and 1918...Furthermore in 1922, Leonard dropped Britton in the 13th round with a shot to the solar plexus,and while Britton was on the floor mysteriously poked Britton on the canvas,and the referee gave the bout to Britton on a foul. Yes Leonard lost a close ND bout to the great Brit WW, Ted Kid Lewis in an 8rd bout in 1918. No shame as Ted Kid Lewis was a great WW, and probably Englands greatest fighter..Cheers...

 

He didn't poke Britton on the canvas, he deliberately walked around the referee and hit Britton (although lightly), who was still down.

The bout with Lewis should be considered a draw.
Leonard: George B. Underwood (New York Morning Sun), Vincent Treanor (New York Evening World), New York Evening Telegram, Joe Norton (Newark Morning Ledger), Jersey (Jersey City, NJ) Journal, Joe McGinn (AP).
Lewis: Igoe (New York Morning World), New York Herald, New York American, Bat Masterson (New York Morning Telegraph).
Draw: New York Times, New-York Tribune, New York Evening Journal, Thomas S. Rice (Brooklyn Daily Eagle).

 

S,true. When I said "poke",I of course meant Britton was already on the floor,and as you state Leonard unfathomably walked around the referee
and hit Britton lightly...Years later Mannie Seamon, Leonards trainer
said that Billy Gibson the "connected" manager of Leonard,told Benny
"tonight you can't win". Seamon confessed this event,after Leonard died
in 1947...Incidentally,years later Ike Williams HAD to play ball quite often, OR ELSE !!.
P.S. Budd Schulberg, a great friend of Benny Leonard who wrote "On the Waterfront" starring Marlon Brando, main theme was a boxer having pressure put on him by the mob...

 

I had read that Leonard was told he wasnt allowed to win that fight but was never sure how valid the claim is.

 

A craftsman indeed,Burt. The greatest ever hypothetical lightweight fight would be Benny versus Roberto Duran,imo.

 

I consistently rank him behind duran and gans but maybe that should change?

 

What´s your main criteria ?
His opposition at LW is (probably) better, but it´s tough to say without footage of his opponents....

 

One thing i always find funny about peoples ranking of Benny is those who rate him below Duran at lightweight but above Duran P4P. I am a huge fan of Benny and not Duran biggest fan but i can never get my head around how some one could rate them like that.

 

Ray Arcel, who trained Duran and saw Benny Leonard many times, said that Ray Robinson and Benny Leonard were the two greatest fighters of all time. He did not pick between them.
Interestingly, he said that what made Benny Leonard great was his 'mental energy'. Not his speed, or his power, not even his conditioning. What made him great was his ability to out think the other guy, which is something every aspiring fighter should circle in red.

 

Dominance within an era, ability to utilise skillset ideally on footage, resume and intangibles (weight jumping etc)

However my opinion of duran at lw has slightly diminished over the past couple of months for some reasons and increased for others so I need to balance that out in my head. It's all hectic at the moment because i've got 675 boxers to fully reevaluate in terms of the criteria I listed and i'm going in alphabetical order (just completed my appraisal of ali, on to angott next) once i've appraised each fighter i'll then compare them divisionally before doing a p4p comparison.

So in essence within 2 years I should have a better idea of how I place duran and leonard divisionally and overall :good

 

It seems, on paper anyway that Leonards opposition at LW was superior than Duran's. My memory may be failing me but I can't recall any stellar opponents that Duran faced during his LW reign. I recall the Viruet brothers, Lampkin and Bizzarro and of course DeJesus but who else of note did Duran face that could compare to the best that Leonard faced?

 

How's this June 26 1922 Leonard Jack Britton for the welterweight championship. Based on his previous 2 bouths with Britton he would have beaten him had the fix not hve been in, than on July 4th he beats Rocky Kansas in the 8th round, and on the 27th of July he has his first bout with Lew Tendler.

 

Leonard didn't have an easy time with other ATG fighters, so it's not like they could only get the better of him in fixed fights.

 

S,Your statement could be said about every fighter in history. Of course Benny Leonard had some problems with some all-time great fighters, BUT HE WON and kod some of the VERY best lightweights in history,during his title reign of SEVEN years...Give the guy his due...Cheers.