Bernard Hopkins 160 title thoughts

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by UK.Boxing, Oct 24, 2019.


  1. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Addict Full Member

    4,065
    1,813
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 9, 2010
    There are some special brands of meat, I hear :periodico:
     
  2. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    31,454
    2,286
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    Bernard's career always stirs up a great debate.

    As you probably know, I've always been split by his reign/career.

    On one hand, his longevity was amazing, where he was fighting Taylor at 40 years of age, which was 4 years after beating Tito. And even if you don't like the guy personally, that's just an incredible achievement. But then on the other hand, by his own admission, he made incredible sacrifices in order to rule an average MW division, where he enjoyed size advantages over most of his opposition.

    He's on record stating that he could have moved up to SMW and LHW years earlier, but he didn't want to give up his advantages.

    He's also stated that if he could get a guy up to a weight that they weren't used to, he'd do that.

    Those statements above is why I'm only impressed by his longevity.

    Of course, he did nothing wrong. Nothing illegal. If he could make weight, he could make weight. But to me, it just showed a lack of ambition.

    Staying at MW racking up those defences, was easier than targeting the best SMW's and LHW's of the world.

    A guy like Hagler had completely different circumstances. He was fighting in the days of same day weigh-ins, where he often weighed in inside the limit, and there was no SMW division back then. He'd probably be a JMW today.
     
    Smokin Bert and robert ungurean like this.
  3. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    10,991
    4,801
    Sportsbook:
    1,605
    Apr 3, 2012
    I would think beating a current and former middleweight champion while fighting at middleweight would be good enough to call oneself a middleweight.
     
  4. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    31,454
    2,286
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    I think Tito was a credible MW even though he didn't do much at the weight.

    Oscar didn't even beat Sturm and looked bad.
     
    Smokin Bert likes this.
  5. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    10,991
    4,801
    Sportsbook:
    1,605
    Apr 3, 2012
    Oscar got it together somewhat for the Hopkins fight, but it definitely wasn’t a good weight for him. I can’t blame Oscar for taking the fight really. He gave Hopkins some problems.
     
    Loudon likes this.
  6. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,363
    1,484
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 22, 2009
    Honestly John I never tried to cast shade that he always had trouble making weight. As I said before I simply do not know and neither does anyone else. I don't know why you wrote that. As far as Hopkins at 25 in beating the hell out of Monzon and Hagler 25 years into their careers, no doubt as I wrote before Hopkins longevity was incredible. And also he was fighting at a high level when he fought Shumenov. Hagler couldn't get out of the way of a Mugabi punch when he was just 31. Hagler was done in his early 30s and Monzon in his mid 30s. I would have loved to have seen Hopkins against Hagler or Monzon after say 55 fights into their careers. It's practically impossible to gauge Hopkins anyway due to his outrageous longevity. For example when was his prime- when he beat Trinidad? That's my guess.
     
    JohnThomas1 and Loudon like this.
  7. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,363
    1,484
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 22, 2009
    I honestly believe Hopkins would not have moved directly into 175 in the late 70s and early 80s. His record at 175 is not special, and it would have been alot worse during that era.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

    49,171
    5,374
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jun 29, 2007
    Starting he was too powerful in his prime and good jr middle and welters. Name fighters in these divisions did not dare meet him. Hagler and Monzon’s legacy benefited from lower weight fighters moving up to 160.

    Ps. Your amigo Mcvey/Rainer/Tonto62 has been banned in case you didn’t know.
     
  9. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    31,454
    2,286
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    He didn't have trouble making weight as in he had to starve himself or dehydrate himself like some guys do in camp. But he had to live an extraordinary disciplined lifestyle where he made huge sacrifices in order to keep his weight low. He literally measured out units of food etc, even when he wasn't in camp. Mackie Shilstone said that he couldn't believe how it was physically possible for Bernard to keep making weight.

    Ordinarily, you'd praise a guy like that for their incredible discipline and professionalism. But it's hard to do that with Bernard when you know that he did it because it was easier than fighting better opponents at a more comfortable weight. That's my issue. I don't see it as incredible professionalism. I see it as a lack of ambition.

    Even when he'd unified at MW and there was nothing else to accomplish, he called out all of the JMW champs to come up and face him rather than moving up for a new challenge.

    We're not talking about a natural MW fighting in his natural weight class.

    We're not talking about a guy who stayed at MW because it was a thriving division.

    We're talking about a 6'1 guy who had a 75" reach, who squeezed himself down to fight mostly average opposition, because he didn't want to mix it with the better fighters in the divisions above.

    Personally, I cant give him credit for that. I know that the MW division was prestigious, but in my opinion he was hiding away there. That's honestly how I see it.

    Yes, his longevity was incredible. But I think he was a bully at MW.

    Regarding Marvin, yes, he never had Bernard's longevity. But then he fought more fights earlier on in his career which aged him quicker.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Clinton and Smokin Bert like this.
  10. NoNeck

    NoNeck Pugilist Specialist Full Member

    10,991
    4,801
    Sportsbook:
    1,605
    Apr 3, 2012
    Not special? He was over 40. It’s maybe the best resume ever for over 40.

    Hopkins was extremely disciplined and could make 160 in any era.
     
    JohnThomas1 likes this.
  11. HerolGee

    HerolGee Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    41,953
    3,871
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Sep 22, 2010
    there is noone of that name on that forum as far as i know, let me know what u mean.

    as long as you arent trying to put down GGG for failing against a former WW when hagler, hop and monxon didnt thats OK.
     
  12. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,363
    1,484
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 22, 2009
    I know he was over 40. And as I have written over and over and over again, his longevity is outrageous and probably unmatched in the sport. But whether he was in his 20s, 30s, or 40s, it doesn't change the fact that his lightheavy resume is not special.
     
  13. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    16,363
    1,484
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 22, 2009
    I agree. Hagler was physically and emotionally done at 32. Bhop started later due to prison- interestingly he weighed 177 in his losing pro debut btw-fought into his late 40s. It's very hard to gauge when Hopkins was prime. I am guessing against Trinidad, although some might say the Glencoffe Johnson version. Who knows? However as far as his being a weight bully is concerned, I don't agree with you there. If a fighter can legally make a certain weight, why shouldn't he?
     
    Loudon likes this.
  14. Loudon

    Loudon Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    31,454
    2,286
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Mar 7, 2012
    I don't think he was a weight bully. A weight bully is someone who drains down and then who rehydrates by a huge amount in order to try and gain an advantage. He didn't do that. But yes, I think he was a bully. He enjoyed his advantages in height and reach, and he was often calling out the guys at JMW to go up.

    Yes, if he could make weight, there was nothing wrong with that. He was well within his rights to do so. He didn't cheat.

    What I'm saying is, I personally don't give him credit for it. If you want to, that's fine. But I never will, especially after listening to his comments.

    I'm not going to give him credit for calling out guys like Mosley and Oscar, when a rematch with Roy was there, as well as other challenges at SMW/LHW.

    I have to look at the circumstances.

    If the MW division was hot and there was nothing happening above, then that would have been okay. But that's not what happened. He cleaned out an average MW division and then looked at the guys below instead of moving up. So what was good about that? Nothing. That shouldn't be applauded. The only thing that should be applauded is that he was still fighting at an advanced age.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Clinton and Smokin Bert like this.
  15. Eddie Ezzard

    Eddie Ezzard Well-Known Member Full Member

    1,527
    1,151
    Sportsbook:
    1,000
    Jan 19, 2016
    Amen. I have said this before when Mayweather v Pac was deciding the P4P title. One aged 36 and moving up to welter from jnr bantam. Another a 39 year old speedster who had lost a chunk of his career (and presumably speed) to prison who was fighting at 147 having started at 130lbs.

    And these were the best fighters in the world?

    Jesus Aitch! They called it the Seniors Tour when Hearns (30) fought Leonard (33). We knew boxing had slipped at that point but did we ever guess how far the sport would plummet?
     
    The Morlocks, Clinton and Smokin Bert like this.


Sign up for ESPN+ and Stream Live Sports! Advertisement