Bernard Hopkins? ATG? Debateable!

That's a good post. Your first few lines point out the reasons I brought up Arguello. No one ever tries to deny that Alexis is an ATG, and there are many valid comparisons between him and BHop.

How you match a fighter in his first 20 or so fights depends a lot on his amature pedigree. Sometimes even a fighter with a really solid amature back ground needs to be carefully matched early in his pro career. The early career often looks very different from a fighter's prime and latter years. It's what he does AFTER he starts stepping up that counts, and Bernard has proven himslef over and over. His last two opponents ranked #3 and #7 in Ring's P4P list. He lost a debatable SD to Slappy Joe, and won 10 rounds against Pav at age 43. If that's not proving yourself, I don't know what the hell is.

 

This thread smells of ****.

 

Definetly mate,

Your right about the amateur pedigree and as an amateur fighter myself If I did choose to turn pro I would still need those learning curve fights because getting slammed in with a top tenner in the division after only 20 fights could make me or break me and its best to go into a big fight totally confident than delusional lol...

The poster put a lot of emphasis on the early part of Hopkins career where he was still in learning curve stage and after losing his 1st pro fight that is the biggest reality check he could have ever experienced, But the way he bounced back showed a lot more about the type of mentality he had than the loss he received.

I cant get my head around why people want to question a fighters all time greatness, especially if a fighter has taken so many risks throughout his career,

I mean what else does the poster want Hopkins to do to prove himself.

That is actually a question I would like the Poster of this thread to answer if he reads this because if he going to point out problems then he needs to point out a solution.

Arran,

if you can answer that I'd love to hear what you expect him to do to prove himself at this point in his career...

 

I cannot help it if Joe's parents named him Slappy. Silly or not, it's Enzo's fault, not mine!

 

:verysad


are you stupid or just don't know your history . Hpokins didn't unify untill 04/14/2001 agianst Holmes

and did not become undisputed untill 09/29/2001. agianst Trinidad :-(

wich means he didn't make 10 years of defense of the Undisputed MW tilte.

thats the same thing that JOE c did just at SMW.

this thread

forgot to point out the fact that eastman was 40-1 his one loss being a robbery agianst joppy. and was the #1 contender

the fact that at the time joppy fought b-hop he was still rated in higher part of the top 10

Carl daniels at the time was still a respectable fighter

Trinidad although starting his career at a lower weight had blast through all of his opposition (other then the DLH fight) and was undefeated just having KO'd JOppy the WBA belt holder and befroe that had Ko'd vargas and UD reid and got a ko win over Mamadou Thiam in 3 although not a great fighter was 33-1 at the time and had above average punching power althoughhe had a china chin. that s 4-0-3kos going into his fight with B-hop all 3 ko's agianst naturally bigger men.

then we go to Holmes and modest belt holder who was rideing a 5 fight win streak only having 2 losses going into the Hopkins fight

then we have Echols who is a tough customer and hits like a mule.

syd vaderpool who's last 2 losses came against jeff lacy and alejandro berrio. 2 big puncher at SMW ( has a win against GLenn Johnson)

he also avenged that draw against mercado by tko in seven and has a defense against JOe Lipsey who was undefeat at the time 25-0-(20 ko)( by the way B-hop ended his career with that highlight reel KO. )

 

I frickin' hate Bernard Hopkins but he's def. an ATG based on his legacy.

 

Considering Hopkins had no amateur experience and had just gotten out of prison, that loss doesn't mean all that much. Khan on the other hand was a superstar before accomplishing anything

 

he did he just wen to prison

 

No disrespect my friend but you cant be in your right frame of mind.

Do you know how old Hopkins is at the moment.

Would you expect a 43 year old man near the end of his career to move up to cruiserweight...???

I mean you didn't give me any solid answer to my question.

You mentioned that he needs to fight another all time great but then you never stated one...

And if you stated Calzaghe, he does want to fight Calzaghe again but Calzaghe does not want anything to do with a rematch with Hopkins...

Also...

Who else would you suggest he go up against...?

I think you yourself know that he has nothing left to prove and that is why I said this thread really does not hold much weight....

Review your answer and please tell me why he needs to move upto cruiserweight at 43 ???

If you made another thread asking that question I think you would find a lot of hostility...

 

to the thread starter you did over look these to be fair

 

That's how the Elite Squad rolls. :deal

 

:good

 

Exactly. Don't.

That's because Amir was a proven amateur, winning silver at the Olympic games, and had been hyped as future world-class fighter. Hopkins was relatively unknown, having had a less extensive amateur career, having started his pro career after leaving prison. Big difference. I see you forgot to mention that he took on an 8-0 prospect in his 6th fight.

See above.

Same points. Hopkins had to take his time, he was learning the trade still while boxing professionally and trying to preserve his record.

Still very early on, still learning the trade. He had actually claimed the USB title prior to this by stopping Wayne Powell, who had a 30-3-2 record at the time, in 1. Not even Julian Jackson got rid of him this quickly when they met 2 years prior. He then stepped up to face a top amateur in Roy Jones Jr, who had a great, productive start to his pro career. No shame is losing a comfortable decision. Actually between the Jones and Johnson fights he beat Lupe Aquino, a former world title holder who had actually challenged for one 7 months prior to the Hopkins fight, he did get a draw with Mercardo over in Ecuador, but also stopped him in the rematch in the states, claiming his first world title, and then proceeded to defend it against 4 times, including against 26-0 Joe Lipsey, and John David Jackson, former world title holder, before shutting out Johnson on root to a stoppage win, the only stoppage he has suffered in 15 years, despite going in with some of the world's best fighters.

Considering he had wins over Jackson, Johnson and Mercado by the time he went into his 35 fight against Andrew Council, I find your point invalid. Those are 3 good names on his record, if not Mercado then certainly the first 2.

Consider the fact that Trinidad barely fought at 140, and Hopkins barely fought at 175. Trinidad was a welter, Hopkins a middle. They were 2 divisions and 13lbs apart, not 35. Trinidad at the time was regarded as middleweigt, he was 40-0 and had just come off 2 of his best wins to date, beating the then unbeaten beast Fernando Vargas via 12th round TKO, and stopping William Joppy in 5 to become a 3 weight world champion. Hopkins was the underdog, yet produced a superb display to dominate on-route to a 12th round stoppage win.

You have a point, Oscar was too small. But he had established himself at light-middle in the division below, and Hopkins actually agreed of a catchweight of 158 meaning it wasn't strictly middleweight. Still, Oscar was never a super-feather, he was huge, and is more of a natural welter when we consider him. Anyway, considering the name it should be a huge win, but the size difference included, it is still a good one, defeating him in the manner he did.

The Taylor fights were very tough to score. By this time anyway Hopkins looked a bit lethagic at middleweight, but they were too very close defeats, the first a SD and the second unanimous, though I firmly believe Hopkins won. Antonio Tarver was a real, live opponent. He had knocked out RJJ in 2 and become THE man to beat a light-heavy. In his first fight, moving up 15lbs, Hopkins dominated him completely. Again, Winky you have a point was a bit small, but it was an impressive and clear performance for Hopkins en-route to a comprehensive win. Not outstanding, but still a very good one.

It was tough to score aswell. Even as a fan of JC, I could only give it to him 114-113. 7 rounds to 5, with the knockdown in the first. He lost on 1 point on my card, and other's had the fight that close aswell. I'm sorry, but the 116-111 card was bull****. No way did Hopkins win only 3 of the 12 rounds.

Hyped he may of been, but he was the middleweight champion, and that couldn't be disputed, along with being a big 160 and a world-class fighter, unbeaten at the time with a 34-0 record, with 30 KO's, and coming off a recent win over Jermain Taylor at 164. He weighed in at 169 for the Hopkins fight, he himself made the catchweight of 170, just a pound heavier. Hopkins schooled him en-route to a near shut-out win over a top 7 P4P fighter. In fact, it really should of been a shut-out, or a 119-109 win at best.

Wasn't fully developed as a fighter in the Jones fight, shouldn't be counted, Jones wasn't world-class either but was far more accomplished. Too early on in both their careers. Calzaghe fight was lost by 1 point.

The Tarver win was excellent, the Pavlik win too, not over-rated, excellent, the Winky win was very good, the Trinidad win very good, the Oscar win has to be counted as a very decent win aswell indeed.

Taylor fights were very close. Robbed in the second, lost a razor thin split in the first. Mitchell loss is ridiculous, it was his first ever pro fight after little amateur experience.

Not to mention he was the Ring light-heavyweight champion of the world, beating THE man at the weight, the undisputed middleweight champion of the world, holding all 4, the WBC, WBA, IBF & WBO belts at the same time, and had held a title for over 10 wins, racking up 20 defences.

He is an ATG that there is no doubt. He should definately be in a list of the top 45 fighters of all-time.