Bernard Hopkins or Carlos Monzon

Hopkins.

 

fair post:good agreed that he dominated most of the competition and it's true that many of his defenses weren't on home ground (as you noted the griffith fight). i wasn't aware of the tendancy to score close fights as draws but considering how many draws he had (8 i think) it makes sense. at any rate, i'm probably slightly under estimating his reign though i think nard's wins over tarver and pavlik give him the edge and his one great middleweight win (trindidad) goes a long way

 

Monzon by a landslide.

 

That fine if you think boxing is like a Hollywood movie but it aint...I mean Gatti will be remembered more fondly then half the fighters in the top 50 p4p alltime..does that mean he is greater?

 

Hopkins beat up a small one-dimensional teato, a small heartless ODLH, lost to RJJ by a wide margin. But I guess he did beat Ray Allen over the course of a trilogy:rofl got beat-down twice by Taylor, did beat a sickly Pavlik a non-great in Winky, took in the rear from Calzaghe. HMMM

Monzon was virtually unbeatable when he actually trained, and no one ever owned him like Talyor owned B-bop...:deal

 

Depends on how you want to look at it really...but there if you had to rank the top 10 fighters, H2H at least, from both of their resumes at middleweight Id reckon guys Monzon beat would dominate.

Dont think their middleweight reigns are comparable..though a few do rubbish Bernard's unnecessarily..but come to think of it so do quite a few ignant people regarding Monzon's.

It is pretty close now..It sort of depends on what Pavlik goes on to do because Tarver and Winky looked pretty done for the most part, so they may not add to Nard's legacy anymore then they have. The significance of that win increases in my eyes if Kelly proves he can be an elite fighter for a few more years.

I also where possible rank a guy on his form on film and in the ring dominance..and for me Carlos was better middleweight in this regard.

 

see fair or not, this is where monzon takes a hit from me. with the exception of the benvenuti fights, he never looked spectacular to me. he was efficient, almost workmanlike. he did what he did very well to be sure, and used his skills to dominate. but i never saw a ATG talent and was never thrilled by his performances. in HOW monzon won, he fell a little short for me.

 

trinidad, winky, were blown up welters...DLH was a blown up light weight/ welter... PAV and Tarver were solid ass wins

but dont say he beat every available opponet for 20 defenses...half of those were **** opponents...steve frank? mormar hakbar? robert allen (3 times)?? william bo james? carl the squirel daniels? syd vanderpool? andrew council? joe lipsey? thats 10 right there.....
somehow he hopkins fought for 20 years but people will say these guys were too green or too late....... he didnt fight...gerald mcllelan, nigel benn, mike nunn, barkley, mccallum, chris eubank, steve collins, sumbu kalambay..... but he did find time to fight for welterweight simon brown among the other welters mentioned above.....

 

People in glass houses and all.

 

Absolute master of subtly and an ultimate ring general.

He never impressed me that much either but Ive watched a lot of him now and believe mate you will see it one day.

 

well i'll tell you this much, i should definitely take a second look:thumbsup

 

Monzon

 

Monzon because of the quality of opposition...

 

Kidney punchces mate he won fites by throwing kidney punches

 

Sorry, I gotta answer this post a bit...its been a while since I seen something so inaccurate. I acutally was shocked that noone called this out sooner.

First, Trinidad had just destroyed the number 3 MW in the world like noone had before or noone even has since. He came into the fight as a huge favorite, among betters, fans and "experts" alike. Few picked him to win...the question wasnt IF Bernard was gonna lose, but rather in WHAT ROUND was he gonna get KO'd in. Now, after Hopkins puts on one of the greatest pure boxing displays many of us have ever witnessed, Trinidad is a blown up WW. Hindsight is great huh??? I hate that **** honestly...

Second, Wright was not a blown up WW, he was a career JMW (one of the best JMWs of all time actually), meaning he and Bernard were prime for prime 6 lbs apart. Only come fight night, Hopkins regularly weighed in right around his actually "weigh in" weight (as evident when Oscar actually outweighed him when they entered the ring)...where as Winky was known to put on 5-10 lbs regularly between stepping on the scales and stepping between the ropes. That said, Hopkins that night, going by your thought process was actually a blown up MW taking on a blown up JMW. Oh yeah...and he was again the underdog. Lovin' this hindsight arent ya.

Third...I already mentioned the fact that he was outweighed by Oscar come fight night (154-160)...but lets peek a bit deeper. He didnt muscle De La Hoya did he? He didnt overpower him, did he? He didnt wear him down, did he? Nope...what he did was he went in and outboxed him...winning pretty much every round en route to stopping him. Which before Pac, Oscar had been stopped all of once...by Bernard.

Let me count it off for you again...

First, he fought Allen twice. One was ruled a NC when Hopkins was accidently knocked out of the ring by the ref and was injured...but seeing as Allen was the mandatory the belt, he was ordered to fight him again once he healed. That fight therefor did not count toward his defenses because it was a NO CONTEST!!!

Second, all of these names were what you would call mandatories...meaning, no fight, no belt. And for a fighter who struggled to get big money fights against big name fighters (before Tito of course), those belts were the only bargaining chips he had. Had he not fought Steve Frank or Joe Lipsey, guess what, he never gets to fight Felix Trinidad and he never becomes a star.

Third, I see you mention these names...but omit others like Glen Johnson, John David Jackson, William Joppy, Antwun Echols, Howard Eastman, Keith Holmes, etc.

(btw, x out boxrec and go look at the fighters you named...Vanderpool and Lipsey were actually quite good)

Lets look at this...

Mclellan - forcably retired in 1995 after his fight with Nigel Benn due to brain damage. Who was Hopkins fighting right around that time??? Segundo Mercado...the fighter Hopkins beat for the title.

atsch

Benn - Was already at another weight class in 1995 when said fight with Gman took place. In fact, he had been at that weight for 4 years prior. Soon after he lost three straight and retired in 1996. Who was Hopkins fighting around that time??? Frank and Lipsey...career defenses 1 and 2 at a weight class below Benn.

atsch

Nunn - By the time Hopkins had even made a defense (1996), Nunn was fighting at CW. Nice try...next name please.

atsch

Barkely - See above (was at CW in 96)...

atsch

Mccallum - We should just play the..."Where were they in 1996" game...The Bodysnatcher was at LHW. He retired a year later...all while Hopkins was "ducking him" two weights lower, instead making his defenses against two fighters named...and help me here, these are obscure guys...Glen Johnson and John David Jackson.

atsch

Eubank - 96? Was at SMW...hadnt held a title in 2 years. Was coming off of a pair of losses to Collins...was about to lose to Calzaghe (in the fight that made me a fan of Joe's), as well as two straight more at CW to end his career. All while Hopkins was again wasting his time with bums like Johnson and Jackson.

atsch

Collins - Forget 96...lets just look at 98. That is when he retired after spending the better part of the previous 7 years fluxuating between MW and SMW, with the majority of his fights happening above. This was around when Hopkins was at defense #7.

This one I mean, I guess could have been discussed, but its a stretch.

:good

Kalambay - Ummm, he retired in 93 dude??? You serious about that???

:-(

Honestly man...do some research next time. This post was just awful, biased and ridiculously inaccurate.