Bernard Hopkins or James Toney...who ranks higher All-Time???

Yes...it does...like I said...why do I waste my time on stuff like this.

 

Keith Holmes...be serious with that, you have never even seen Keith Holmes fight if you dont think he was better than Dave Tiberi.

Im not into breaking down fighters by their boxrec stats, but...lets take a look at Tiberi's for a second.

22-3-3 with 7 KOs. Never a title...only title shot was against Toney (where he should have gotten the W). Was a decent at best fighter...and Im being generous.

Now Keith Holmes...

40-5-0 with 25 KOs. 2 time WBC MW champion. A very, VERY good technical fighter with decent pop.

Now admit it...you have never seen even one round of a Keith Holmes fight, have you??? Because EVERYONE that has seen him knows he was one hell of a fighter.

Now please stop posting and dont EVER say anything as STUPID as I need to learn boxing. I have forgotten more then you will ever know.

Little boy...atsch

 

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:rofl :rofl

 

He was B level at best. Let's not start comparing him with Nunn or McCallum now..

 

I dont know about this one, I have always been critical of B-Hop. Even though he is one of my favorite fighters.
But honestly at MW he stayed there and his 2 biggest wins were aagainst blown up welters. Thats a fact, Unifying the division and staying on top of it as long as he did is a huge accomplishment, but he gets the same flack from me as Calzaghe does. unifying teh division is a hug accomplishment, but I mean whoa re you fighting, move up, challenge yourself as a fighter.
James challenged himself by moving up in weight, which in and of itself is harder to do when you are a natural MW.

 

2 me B-Hop couldve been even a greter fighter than he is now, if he decided to leave MW years ago and try to win some more belts at higher divisions.

 

Noone ever did.

But saying Echols is a bad/easy win is like saying Mitchell was a bad/easy win for Calzaghe. Echols is one TOUGH SOB! A good fighter with an absolute MONSTER of a right hand!!!! Yes he was limited, but at his absolute peak was a hard fight for anyone...dirty as hell, strong as an ox, great chin, power in both hands (in the right hand like a MOFO), decent skills.

Is he a future HOFer...no, not by any sense of the word. But was he a top MW and a damn good fighter...HELL YES!

 

I never really understood the concept of giving a fighter like Toney CREDIT for moving up in weight because he lacked the discipline to stay where he was more suited...yet in the same breath knocking someone who DID have the discipline to keep himself in peak condition and therefor keep himself in his peak weightclass???

It just escapes me.

Its the same train of thought of giving someone credit for moving up, but knocking a fighter who beats a guy moving up???

Doesnt make any sense if ya ask me.

 

You g2 give credit to some1 who moves up. Its like a kid on a JV team playing varsity ball.
Im not tryin to discrdit B-Hop b/c I like him, but James deserves some respect for trying to bang with the big boys.
The reasoning I guess can limit the greatness of it, but he still went up nonetheless.

 

Once again, Fab, fantastic Avatar.

I don't count it against fighters when they stay in one division for a long time, particularly if they end up unifying and cleaning out that division, as Hopkins did at 160. I guess it's just a matter of preference, because a guy moving up and "challenging" himself is not a greater feat in my view.

 

I understand WHY giving him credit...but he didnt move up to bang with the big boys...he moved up because he lacked the discipline to keep himself conditioned. That to me isnt a show of greatness, its a birth of nessesity. He couldnt make weight anymore, so he HAD to move up.

But in the same right, as I have said, he still does deserves credit for moving up and competing...but its also one of the reasons why he SHOULDNT be ranked above Hopkins....his awful training habits and his lack of discipline in and out of the ring (not to mention that he used roids to compete at some of those higher levels as well!!!).

Lets not remember this gem from the Toney vault...

[yt]jSmiC0knRL4[/yt]

And again, if we are giving those fighters credit for moving up...then why do we knock fighters who beat these fighters who move up? I mean, its not Hopkins decision for Tito to move to MW...its not Peter's decision for Toney to go to HW.

BURGER KING HERE I COME!!! BURGER KING!!!!!

 

:good on the avatar shout out.

How moving up and "challenging himself" not a greater feat?
If that so be the case, then you would rank B-Hop unifying the MW division, and Roy jones moving from MW to LHW and unifying that division on the same field then?

 

There is a difference there...Jones was the UNDISPUTED CHAMP at LHW...Toney never held more than one belt in ANY DIVISION...EVER!

(and fab...you ALWAYS have the best avatars...:good )

 

im not talking about Toney, Im talkin about B-Hop unifying MW, and Jones at LHW