Bernard Hopkins or James Toney...who ranks higher All-Time???

Great post...:good

Add in the steriods thing and his inconsistancy and its a ****ing blowout.

Its not even close....and I mean, NOT EVEN CLOSE!

 

And Amsterdam....Im honestly shocked by you. You should know better.

Disappointed is a better word.

 

Go to my Floyd thread, I have Hopkins ranked over Floyd and have been defending it non-stop.:yep

Trying to set things straight here. Toney's resume is better than Hopkins IMO, it's better than Calzaghe's also, by a wide margin. No bias here what so ever for my preferance in fighters.

 

How can it be better with so many SD or MD...and losses against MUCH MUCH lesser opponents (Dave Thadzi) or what have you?

The one common opponent, Hopkins was competative with (tho clearly lost) yet Toney got annihilated.

The top names on Toney's resume may be slightly better (tho that could EASILY change on the 19th) but even then they are few and far between....and if you look at who has the deeper resume its easily Bernard.

Then you look at achievements and consistancy and its again FAR in Bernard's favor.

I can see your point with Floyd and I agree...and Floyd aint helping his cause talking about fighting Oscar and Hatton again, but dont get me started about that...but Toney in all honesty shouldnt be in the top 50...let alone above Bernard.

 

God your dumb....atsch

 

Toney's inconsistency is what brings Hops and Toney close, I haven't insulted anyone for ranking Hops over Toney close, but I have a problem with Hops being widely favoured over James.

I mean come on dude, have you watched those fights? MD, SD's, don't just go on boxrec.

Nunn, McCallum etc.

Prime, elite fighters at their natural weight, Toney's resume overall is excellent and while he dropped fights to **** opponents(inconsistency), he deserved the two wins over Griffin and beat a good amount of top opponents.

His comp is superior to RJJ's by a kilometer, but RJJ's dominance and consistent dominance easily puts him 40 spots above the man he defeated, IMO.

Hopkins, not so, no bias either way.

Styles.

Slightly better? Don't even start mate.

My favourite fighter ever Calzaghe, Hopkins and even the ultimate supernatural in Jones have nothing on Toney's overall competition, his competition is just ****ing absurd, it's really been a wake up in looking at it and he defeated MOST of them.

Hopkins fighting Calzaghe still doesn't give him Toney's comp mate, it just brings it 'closer'.

Yeah consistency and H2H brings them closer together, I think Toney should be undoubtly favoured.

I agree he shouldn't be in the top 50.

Here is how I have them as it stands now -

Floyd - 80's

Calzaghe - 90's

Hopkins - 70's

Toney - 60's

:good

A dominant win for Calzaghe jumps him into the 70's, a decisive win for Hopkins jumps him up something severe, I'll have to think about it.

Floyd needs Cotto to make top 50.

 

You know whats so funny, marvin hagler is top 15 of all times, james toney is somewhere between 70-100. Yet realistically james toney beat the better big men, while marvin hagler beat the samller guys moving up in weight, roberto duran wasnt even prime anymore either.

I guess Marvin Hagler has wins over 3 good middleweights like vito, minter and hamsho and all 3 are bettere than the middleweights that hopkins beat. But still, nunn, mccallum, reggie, prince charles, iran barkley and vasiliy jirov is a killer resume. People dont realize how good of a wins resume toney really has. Its the losses to thadzi and tiberi that really hurt him.

You can put monzon, hagler and hopkins against those 7 guys that toney fought and i guarantee they would have losses too. Toney fought the best competition out of the 4, theres no question about it. James Toney should be praised for not fighting little guys, not bashed for it.

Lets see, toney's p4p reign was from 91-94 right? The top little guys from that time period were julian jackson and terry norris. If he would have knocked them out, it makes him a top 30 p4per now. I mean thats what hagler and hopkins did, fight little boys.

 

And Sues, if you want to even suggest that Hopkins comp is as steep as Toney's ridiculous steep competition, let's compare them -

Hopkins:

Roy Jones
Echols X 2
Trinidad
Wright
Vanderpool
Joppy
Tarver
Taylor X 2
Holmes
Calzaghe

Yeah, ****ing steep, but look at this **** -

Toney:

Roy Jones
Mike McCallum X2
Montell Griffin X2
Reggie Johnson
Michael Nunn
Doug Dewitt
Iran Barkley
Tony Thornton
Tim Littles

As you can see, I didn't just include big names, I included decent B's that were beaten throughly and should be rightfully added. As you can see also, he's got Hopkins matched for comp already here, but let's continue:

Vassily Jirov
Evander Holyfield
John Ruiz
Hassim Rahman
Samuel Peter X2

................

Toney's comp is crazy good, inconsistent and all he was still succesfull for the most part, this **** is not comparable in terms of comp. Don't spin that.

 

:yep

:nod

People don't assess resume's correctly these days.

His competition is insanely hard competition. Look at his MW-SMW run with Nunn, Johnson, McCallum....

3 prime, elite Natural MW's.

 

Even if I give you resume...which I dont...considering you DO have to account for performances against that resume, which Toney sometimes was spectacular, sometimes lackluster. But lets say that I did.

What other category would you give Toney?

Toney NEVER held more than one major belt at any point and time in his career. He has the steroid cloud (which I am sorry...SHOULD be included). He has CLEAR losses against fighters that were not in his class at all. I could keep going....

You can argue resume...you can argue h2h....but the rest ISNT EVEN CLOSE!!! Not by a longshot.

 

toney was the linear middleweight champ, nunn established lineage by beating kalambay, then toney knocked him the **** out.

Bernard Hopkins alreadly proved that the two best natural middleweights got the best of him.

 

I'm arguing competition first hand, is there any recent fighter with that type of insane competition?

People flip out because Taylor has fought Hopkins(old), Wright, Spinks, Ouma and Pavlik X2. And say 'wowww, what great competition'.

Look at that goddamn competition I posted. I want you to confirm right there that the comp I posted is as good as it's going to get for a P4P weight jumper in the modern times. Confirm that and we'll continue.:good

 

Toney held the IBF title and defended it a few times. Give me a break.

Hopkins unified the division and defended it 20 times.

And those two MWs you speak of....one is Roy Jones Jr...remind me for a second how Toney looked vs him? The other was Taylor and most feel Hopkins won those fight....

atsch